Aight, i’mma biting into this “nurrr i like X so you liking Y is dumb” pie. Because there seems to be some fundemental misunderstandings about the Second War/Vanilla/TBC. Much against my better judgement of getting drawn into serious conversation here.
Access to Outland, the Blood Knights and more of a foothold on the EK; they were only ‘accepted’ when they arguably weren’t on ‘life support’ any more and dumped Drathir in the dumpser. Again. (The Blood Knights canonically came in hand a couple of years later FYI, when Arthas awoke. Sylv was very giddy at the idea of them being in NR). And magic, beyond the Forsaken there wasn’t really any great deal of sorcery going on in the Horde. And even then they’re no Silvermoon.
Anyway.
I think people are very much conflating Thrall’s Horde with the Second War Horde, as though they’re one and the same or they are at least longing for a return to it (which is impossible). After the Second War, the vast majority of orcish clan-traditions died out due to the sheer losses the orcs took alongside being put in camps/being hunted.
In the camps themselves you had a cultural death, Thrall didn’t even know he was a frostwolf until he met the Grom. And any questions he asked within the camps or orcish settlements he came across external to Durnholde he was given jaded “it’s over boy, none of it matters any more. We bleeped up.” or simple “O-orgrim will come save us, r-right?” and those orcs were typically shut down by the more jaded ones. The modern Horde is largely clanless, the only really two surviving clans are the Frostwolves and the Warsong, the former who eeked by in a secret valley (AV) and the latter who were actively hunted. Grom vocally regretted the Second War, because as it turns out invading another world and declaring total war on its denizens gave them a very valid reason to hunt your people down, the Second War cost the orcs their culture and (arguably) their future as it was at the time. Which is why Thrall’s Horde is this mingling of frostwolf ideas counterbalancing Warsong ideas. At least, that’s how the books depict it. And you can see how, from the very start of Warcraft 3 this has tempered the orcs and generally made them more weary were Thrall says something akin to “ignore the humans, don’t attack them. But if they attack us, slaughter them.”
And then we dip into Vanilla Warcraft, were the Horde has picked up new allies (The Tauren and the Forsaken) and are sold as “the underdog faction, were they may not necessarily be family but they are forced to be allies in a world that doesn’t like them.” Which is how the Forsaken were inducted into the Horde via the Grimtotem (mostly because they were gunna use the Forsaken to remove Cairne and the Bloodhoof tribe from power).
And even then, it was the Forsaken chomping at the bit to get the Blood Elves in the Horde (another arrow in Sylv’s quiver against Arthas). And bear in mind at this point in time you had the Alliance being a genuine threat, you had dwarven imperialism and humans enroaching into the Barrens and night elves generally being aggressive.
And arguably this is why Thrall wasn’t fond of the Amani (as someone mentioned earlier), because the Second War cost the orcs -everything- and they no longer aligned with what the orcs had become/were forced to become. Whereas the Amani didn’t get what they wanted and went back to their forests.
To touch on this, Silvermoon actually wasn’t really involved in the Second War for a long time. It was isolationist. It did its own thing, skirmishing with the trolls. Menathil asked for aid and all the elves did was send Alleria and some other rangers, “there you go guys, we’re helping!” Silvermoon wasn’t chomping at the bit to go out and butcher the poor widdle orcies :< hell, Anasterian was reluctant to do -anything- at that point in time.
But prior to this the Amani had joined the Horde in exchange for the promise of Silvermoon’s destruction, and even -THEN- Anasterian didn’t shift his stance until Amani/Orcish heads were thrown at his feet. And the Horde were already attacking the outer forests of Quel’Thalas - The Blackened Woods, later to be the Ghostlands.
And even after the war, the elves didn’t contribute much to the Alliance or had much dealings with orcs after. They simply retreated away again and returned to their cold diplomatic stance.
There seems to be this idea going about in this thread that somehow the Second War Horde was wronged, or they are owed some reparations or apology for losing in a total war which they initiated. In which they attempted to scour more kingdoms from Azeroth.
Edit: Hell, even through all this - and despite the corruption going on AT - the camps. Menathil planned to integrate the Horde into the Eastern Kingdoms, to reform them and then let them go. Which is arguably more gentle than whatever the Horde/Amani had planned for the Alliance if they won.
If a roaming warband demolished the kingdom at the opposite end of the continent, then marched towards my own home and attempted to bulldoze that too and butcher everyone in it just to lose… Why would they be given an apology? What mental gymnastics are being conducted in this thread?
The only orcs to be “wronged” so to speak, were the children fostered in the internment camps. Who didn’t get told much of their heritage beyond the flustercuck that was the Second War and having to witness their parents fight in gladitorial combat for entertainment. What loyalty would they have to the Amani?
Even Arthas comments on this either stop mistreating Thrall’s people like that or stop training Thrall. All Blackmoore did was create the perfect general with insider knowledge of human military tactics and infrastructure and a very legitimate reason for the orcish youth to hate them. But even then Blackmoore wanted this because he wanted to use the orcs to bulldoze Lordaeron and insert himself king before taking over neighboring lands. You can’t even really lay down Thrall’s mistreatment at Lordaeron due to the corruption and hidden agenda of one nobleman.
Look, if you like the Amani over the Blood Elves then whatever. Yes the Blood Elves were added to the Horde to balance faction numbers, but if you oppose the blood elves being a part of it then surely you would oppose the Forsaken too?
I like strawberry ice cream and you like chocolate, I don’t particularly care.
But from what posts i’ve had a cursory glance over, there’s some real gold medals being dished out chief. It wasn’t until Warcraft III that Blizzard actively flipped the orcs and tried to make them more sympathetic.
Edit: People are also forgetting that the Scourge actually hammered the Amani too (Zul’Mashar/Ghostlands), and that the Amani attempted a flat-out invasion of Silvermoon after the Scourge ransacked the place and failed*. The Amani coming into World of Warcraft were just as much of a sickly Horse as Silvermoon. And even if the Amani joined and the Horde turned on the elves, would the Forsaken have been idle while this happened? Would the -Alliance- have been idle? Seeing as a restrengthened Zul’aman would threaten the Hinterlands -and- Stromgarde.
*This was while the elves were destroying the Sunwell which was actively killing and poisoning them and also fighting the Scourge.
Sources: Arthas - Rise of the Lich King, Lord of the Clans, Blood of the Highborne.