It just shows that Auela is typical belfie. Traitor switching allegiances as they please. Once going Alliance then Horde then back to Alliance. Zero creditibility.
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The Horde as it stands is unworthy of loyalty and isn’t the faction I joined. I pick and choose conflicts as I see fit and the Wildhammer’s cause is righteous.
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No wonder that you see them as righteous.
https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=7842/another-message-to-the-wildhammer
They say the Wildhammer and gryphon are as close to each other as troll and mate. Disgusting,
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As if we should take a troll’s word for it. Haha, I wouldn’t trust a Troll as far as I could throw them.
Belfie and a “trust” shouldn’t be used in same sentence. Period.
Mother of oxymorons.
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Classic quests are fun 
Same npc btw who asks for your help “until Zul’jin will return to us”.
So much for hostility with the Amani.
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And yet Zul’jin felt outraged and betrayed when the Horde invited the Blood Elves and then went to siege Zul’aman.
I’d argue the Darkspear would (or at least should) have not been fine with turning on them.
Strange how he was forgiven to one group of people but not the other and picked that one group of people despite their past over the people they fought with.
Very strange…
Also if they wanted a better hold over EK then the Amani would have been the better choice as they didn’t lose 90% of their population as well as being more of a “natural” choice.
Yet there was no negotiation so we can’t exactly put a pin on whether the Amani would have joined or not. They wanted their land back and it could just be a repeat of the previous alliance they had.
Oh look, some tribes of the Amani were willing to join the Horde. What was this meant to prove exactly?
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Yes.
Because there is quite a difference between being indifferent regarding what happened with the Horde or who they allied themselves with, and to have their sworn enemies going into it.
The Amani decided by themselves to leave the Horde. And grew a certain degree of indifference towards whatever happened with the faction.
This doesn’t mean that given the circumstances, having the Horde eventually welcome the ones they oppose, wouldn’t naturally devolve said indifference into open animosity.
And that would show how little you understand the dynamics between troll tribes.
I recommend “Shadows of the Horde” novel, to see exactly what kind of relation Darkspear and Amani have, and what each tribe thinks of the other.
Thrall never fought with the Amani. And as far as he was concerned, it was them the ones that abandoned the Horde first.
He had zero obligations towards them.
Let alone, that they had never shown any intention or drive to rejoin the faction. As opposed to Blood elves, that actively sought an alliance.
If the Amani wanted to be held first in line for a possible renewal of their friendship, maybe they should’ve first tried to start talks with the new nascent Horde when it was reforming itself.
They seemed pretty comfortable in letting said ship sail past them.
I’m not saying that their reaction towards the Blood elf inclusion isn’t reasonable, but they are certainly NOT blameless regarding how it came to happen, or why did Thrall “forget” about them when time came for new allies.
We know they wanted nothing to do with the Horde, to the point they left Orgrim hanging and broke off near the end of the Second War.
We know that there are other forest tribes that willingly sought to renew their vows with the Horde (Revantusk), so they were certainly knowledgeable regarding the formation of this “New” faction.
Also, we also know they are amongst the most prideful troll tribes, that they look down on other “lesser” tribes like the Darkspear, and that their culture would probably be one that had them thinking they could handle almost any problem by themselves. And that all these traits resonate and describe almost perfectly, a leader such as Zul’jin.
So yeah, its safe to deduce that the reasons for the Amani to not want to join the Horde (apart from the meta ones), are quite obvious.
I’m not judging whether i like or not this development, or if the story should’ve been written in a way that facilitated the Amani into the faction. But given the information given, the reaction of all sides concerned is plausible and fitting.
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Better turning an honest enemy into a long standing ally with a good track record, rather than the Amani who couldn’t give less of craps and burned the bridges on their own. It’s been 12 years since belf introduction. Amani were lore wise around for not fully 2 years. It’s not that hard to accept changes srsly.
Actually these are from Cata Period. I just had wowhead set to classic display 
Honest enemy? Really? The race what was saved by the Humans several times and got pissy with them for not being better and went back on their alliance? You would actually call them honest?
Ye, you’re right, makes complete sense.
Yes they left and yes they grew distant from each other. But they were allies once and are in a position to better help the Horde than the Blood Elves were. Furthermore they are a more natural pick for the Horde for them reasons and more.
It is illogical why Thrall wouldn’t at least approach them, or Vol’jin/Darkspear and perhaps some sort of rivalry between them and Sylvanas for which faction to approach rather than just getting pushed to the wayside and murdered to tie up loose ends.
That is future lore which was written over the old lore. Darkspear saw Zul’jin as a hero going as far back as Warcraft 3 with their quotes. It was changed to help facilitate the Amani being a worse choice and Blood Elves being the better one.
That can be applied to the Blood Elves. At least they fought with the Amani and not against them. Not to mention there should have been a lot of people back from the second war who would at least vouch for the Amani, especially over the Elves.
As the for other part. The Horde never sent out any emissaries to the Amani to know if they would be up for another alliance or not. Sure the Blood Elves were actively seeking an alliance with whoever but that doesn’t mean they would be accepted so fast like the way they did.
It is hard to talk about this because it was just written like that, the Amani would have done more if events were to play out naturally.
Yes, nothing to do with the Horde back in the second war. It has been like 10/15 years or whatever since. I am sure if the Horde would have at least tried to send some sort of ambassador and perhaps help them with their fights against the Scourge and Elves (much like what the Horde did with the Blood Elves) then I can easily see them joining back up.
And Raventusk just proves that there were parts of the Amani who would be willing to reconnect with the Horde, and this is even with the Blood Elves joining them.
All races look down or others and other factions. Using this as an excuse when every race does this is irrelvant.
and like I said before is this from Shadows of the Horde or whatever? Or was this actually canon from back in TBC.
There are reasons for them not to join back, don’t get me wrong. But they make more sense from a lore reason than the Blood Elves by quite a large margin.
Not really no. Out of all the ways of the Amani being sidelined and wiped out this was one of the worst ways to do it. So much stuff had to be changed and ignored to allow such a thing to happen. And it would have been far easier to write a story in which the Amani joined the Horde than it would have been for the Blood Elves to.
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Especially when They already were allied with Revantusk Tribe who wanted to get back in touch with their Warlord.
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Thrall also got rid of that old luggage for the same reasons, he didn’t approach Rend Blackhand and his forces , the original death knights and most of the ogre clans that couldn’t be subjugated. They represented the ways and ideals of the old horde. And the reformations of Thrall were bend on getting away from that image. At least until Garrosh appeared and ruined the hard work. Right, Exarch Hellscream?
So, to solve the thread’s question: Nurture over nature. Thrall is a human, and wanted to lead his own Alliance. That’s why he took in elves and dead humans, as well as anyone who was bullied by real men, and shunned old Horde members.
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Which also explains how he got eyebrows!
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Just because they are trolls, doesn’t mean that they should naturally pick the Horde.
Factions are based on ideological and common interests.
If the story is build in a way that facilitates some sort of distancing, then that’s how things go regardless of whether you like it or not.
Zuljin was prideful, and trolls are more often than not, a classist and racist bunch.
Having the Amani try to survive on their own without the Horde, is fitting and appropriate for the tribes history and given their background.
And regarding this bit:
No, it’s not.
The reason Darkspears had to leave their homeland was because a stronger and more dominant tribe drove them off.
Developing on the fact that dominant and powerful tribes look down on smaller ones, isn’t a retcon.
And if you are going to get a hold of ingame quotes, those are but the remnants of the already voiced troll lines from Wc1-2, when trolls were from the forest tribes, and fought for the Horde.
If you want to look for inconsistencies, Zuljin being a dominant figure amongst those that were JUNGLE trolls and lived a continent away, is what makes no sense whatsoever.
If there were, they would note that the Amani abandoned the Horde to fight for themselves against humans once the faction moved away from the forests the trolls were actually interested in.
So yeah, I doubt those would hold them in high regard. Or be willing to make active efforts to renew their alliance.
Neither did the Amani.
So if the Horde is offered a different kind of alliance (even if they didn’t seek for it), with a certain amount of perks and rewards, they’ll obviously accept it.
And if the Amani dislike it, they should’ve tried to intervene first. Like the Revantusk did.
If they are as prideful as to wear their rears off waiting for someone to come asking for their help, when the last person that did so was abandoned by them the second he pursued goals that didn’t directly align with those of the tribe, then they shouldnt be shocked when said person is offered a different alliance and accepts.
It also proves that Zuljin could’ve joined the faction if he had tried or wanted. But given he didn’t bother doing either, he lost the chance.
What was Thrall supposed to do? Refuse any potential help that may come his way because it might upset someone that showed zero interest in formalising a relation with him? Someone that abandoned his people to fight humans alone even after swearing he would aid them?
I see zero reasons for Thrall to hold Zuljin in any good regard. Let alone to the point of him actively seeking an alliance with him.
He didn’t ask for any new alliance. Blood elves offered theirs, Zuljin didn’t.
He was not to throw away free help.
Specially not for someone that showed zero interest in renewing any kind of compromise with the faction.
It’s canon from all the way back to Classic.
Trolls are based on a tight hierarchical structure that has the stronger tribes exercising their dominion over the lesser ones.
That’s one of the reasons that had the Darkspears fleeing the Gurubashi of Stranglethorn.
So, in all, the Blood elves simply had more reasons to join the Horde than the Amani under Zuljin.
Regardless if we like them or not.
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The blood elves were caught in the throes of constant combat: with the Scourge presence emanating from Deatholme on one hand and continued raids and attacks coming from the Amani trolls, who maintain their own holdings within the ruins and ziggurats of Zul’Aman on the other. The former threat was ultimately neutralized, thanks to the combined efforts of the sin’dorei Magisters and Farstriders, along with support from the Forsaken.
Under direction from leaders within the Ghostlands, this culminated with the eventual battle with and the demise of the Scourge leader, whose head was sent to Regent Lord Lor’themar. Concurrent with failed negotiations with the Alliance, and night elven incursions into Quel’Thalas, Lor’themar began to forge an alliance with the faction his Forsaken allies now belonged to: the Horde. Several ambassadors were sent to and from Silvermoon, and Dar’Khan’s death allowed the blood elves to take an equal seat at Warchief Thrall’s political table.
I think these quests are still actual in Ghostlands.
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How naive of you man really…l just because it isnt shown in-game in WC3 what madman would take “all” of a nation into any expedition and abandon their city?
By your logic WC3 showed Jaina gather all humans to Kalimdor so nobody was left in Stormwind right? So Stormwind city in the beggining of wow is a retcon too.
Thats your logic lol
WC3 narrative follows the heroes story without giving too much info about such details… thats why WOW was exciting! Cause you could see the world!! And now all you sad nostalgia geeks use an incomplete lore-wise game to justify your personal opinions lol…
Blizzard bothered releasing infinite books, short stories , comics and three Chronicles Volumes of lore, just so you could say “Warcraft 1 says Orcs are bad”
Facepalm
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They believed that they were the true Horde and held to the ideals of the it. They are quite literary the opposite to what Thrall was building.
They were out of the question.
Oh, you mean the ones controlled by the Scourge…
I mean a few were, you could argue why Thrall didn’t reach out to all of them which I would agree with but their society is base on the strongest person leading and must be an Orge. Unless you want them to go to war with the various Orges to achieve this, which is then going against the point of wanting allies for survival as they are creating more enemies.
I mean we should be distancing ourselves from the Old Horde right? Ya’now, the one corrupted and being used as pawns?
They are a more natural fit because they were allied once before… Like seriously?
The only thing the Blood Elves had in common with the rest of the Horde was survival from the Scourge lol. If we are using this metric to argue with then the Amani comes out miles ahead of the Blood Elves.
Darkspear saw Zul’jin as a hero and the Orcs had fought with them before. That more than enough reason for them to be considered over the Blood Elves.,
Not really, if they were forced into a position where an alliance was needed then they would do it. Especially when their rivals are getting them as well.
There is no way Zul’jin would hold such a grudge against the Horde and lets say Kael/Lor’themar wouldn’t despite the fact that Quel’thalas was almost destroy by them and the only reason Silvermoon survived was due to a massive shield. L Like cmon seriously? You don’t think the Elves were a prideful bunch either?
There was a number of factors to why the Darkspear left, sure the rivalry of the other tribes was a factor, but so was their nature, famine, constant fighting etc…
I am not saying it was an entire retcon that Trolls fought with each other, I am saying that the Darkspear-Amani relations was, and that is the point of this argument.
And yet they were used in Warcraft 3, I doubt they were just put in there for no reason at all. You might as well just get some random guy to start saying anything if them lines doesn’t count.
Why? Someone who fought against a nation which wanted to drive them from their lands, take over their holy sites and paid the ultimate price of losing his arm for fighting back?
Seems pretty heroic to me, why wouldn’t Trolls look up to Zul’jin as an ideal leader?
Does your logic apply to any other race/faction/nation or whatever? Why would Humans look a Lothar (or the sons of Lothar or whatever) as heroes when they were half a continent away? Or are you gonna find some other way to say why this and all other examples are false and it only applies to Trolls?
Oh not this again. The Horde left the Amani in Quel’thalas ffs. And ye I the average Orc would swing in favour of the Amani even with their history than the people they fought against as well as them wanting to wipe out all the Orcs in the camps.
They weren’t allowed to intervene because the writers wanted Blood Elves in the Horde and not the Amani…
We are talking about how these events should have proceeded in a natural way (or at least I am) and not the way of trying to shove X into Y despite every other letter making little to no sense.
Offered to a different group of people who wanted to eradicate their species and got annoyed by the Human nations for refusing to do this?
The Amani were thrown in the trash, there is no way in hell they would accept such an outcome and wouldn’t try and reach out to near enough anyone (regardless of how arrogant you think they are), especially the Horde.
If events were to go naturally then he wouldn’t have needed to as the Blood Elves wouldn’t have got an alliance with the Horde, nor would they have been left to rot.
Lets get this straight, the Blood Elves were in no position to help the Horde when they first joined beyond minor stuff and had to be blackmailed into sending troops into Northrend. So the whole “potential help” falls on death ears as there was (or should be) more resouces spent in keeping the Blood Elves alive then what they got out of it.
And no, the Amani should have been the first group to be approached for an alliance due to many factors and being in a stronger position, regardless of if the Blood Elves wanted an alliance with them. You don’t just accept them because someone asks.
Because it is more logical than getting the Blood Elves to join?? Afterall, I am not saying this is amazing storytelling or whatever, but the Amani joining the Horde from a lore/story perspective is miles better than the Blood Elves?
Oh I forgot because someone asked you instantly get accepted. I wonder if Thrall will accept an alliance from the Gnolls for protection against Stormwind.
If Zul’jin/Amani had to and if Thrall wanted stronger allies in EK then sure, I can easily see this. Furthermore a deal could perhaps be struck a bit like what eventually happened to the Blood Elves no?
You do realise the Darkspear were once part of the Gurubashi and fought other spliter groups of them right?
And no the Darkspear did hold the Amani (or at leats Vol’jin) to high regards going as far back as warcraft 3 and this “troll rivalry” is irrelevant as you are just saying it in general and not in for the Amani vs Darkspear. You are using the Gurubashi as a strawman for Amani and trying to pass it off as evidence for why the Amani and Darkspear hate each other.
I’ll agree to an extent that the Blood Elves had more reason to join the Horde, but that is not the point of this argument at all. It is that the Blood Elves were somehow accepted and chosen over the Amani and the only defense you can come up with is that they asked to. Everything else is irrelevant and/or pointless.
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It made sense, the population would’ve been overrun by scourge and trolls. If they couldn’t stand to Scourge alone or Amani alone and always needed help - suddenly even with much fracturated and divided forces they can withstand? The amount of retconning plot armoring and just stupidness (human Sunwell!) was appaling.
It would’ve been amazing for Zul’Jin to reclaim the home and undo the damage that elves made.
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