Will the Tauren aid Baine?


#21

if they ahd left horde they would alone against any legion invasind their city and the captial of the horde right there so close by that could attack.


(Erevien) #22

All my Baine hate aside, there has to be at least one full race around standing fully behind Baine and the honor squad, otherwise the rebellion would fail at the startoff. It is only logical. Because chances are still there, Orcs, Trolls and Blood Elfs won’t be willing to gather around them at all. So having the heart race of the Horde at the main anti Sylvanas block/group makes the most sense.


#23

that makes it even better, more to make sylvannas look bad and baine and Alliance friends good. Now dont complain about how doesnt make sense go hate sylvannas or something.

thats what they want


#24

Well, she has a rebellion brewing on her hands.

Unless she steps down or holds talks with the other members of the Horde, of which I haven’t seen any indication of, it is likely that she will quell dissent via force.


(Zarao) #25

Not to be picky, as overall even if I disagree with some points, I respect your opinion.
But the above doesn’t sound true at all from what I recall in the novel.

Both Baine and Magatha note the Forsaken in the vision pools were but a wildcard. People that even if they supported either side, kept to their own and didn’t intervene.


(Zarao) #26

Given that Baines actions were done by him alone, the fact that Tauren in Mulgore are probably oblivious of the whole thing, and several of their people still support Sylvanas, it’d be highly stupid and unnecessary for her to invade Thunderbluff.
Unless writers feel like villain batting her a bit more and feel compelled to completely close the MoP 2.0 parallel circle.
Which they probably will.

If this story was written with an ounce of brain, the best thing Sylvanas could do at the moment would be…nothing.


#27

From The Shattering, chapter 22: “There was no need to worry about the Forsaken in the Pools of Vision just below the main level of Spirit Rise. Most of them tacitly supported Magatha, and those who did not had no particular attachment to the tauren or who led them.”


#28

Doing nothing only risks the rebellion gaining more strength though, and hampering her ability to rule.


(Zarao) #29

“Tacitly supported” , is not the same as “outright supported”.
There is a big difference here.

The former implies they wouldn’t put obstacles to her reign, the later implies they actively aided her.
And that’s Magathas point of view from what I recall.
The one that up until then also thought Garrosh was supporting her too.


#30

Well, Magatha believed that they would aid her if “properly persuaded”, so I assume that they were willing to support her actively.

Also, my phrasing won’t make any difference. The Forsaken supported the Grimtotem. And no, it’s not described from Magatha’s point of view.


(Araphant) #31

Regarding Magatha’s point of view about Garrosh, he did not support her, but he didn’t hinder her either, which is a travesty, especially since he too was responsible for the situation.

He should have marched into Mulgore at once. Loyalty and honor demanded that much.


#32

The Tauren were part of the Horde. The Horde was supposed to protect them, but they failed.

It was one of the only times when Baine really needed their help, yet he got none. I think that says quite a lot.


(Zarao) #33

Wouldn’t say that Blackmail, or bribery, is indicative of faithful or willing support.

But I don’t want to sidetrack and derail much more. I’ll just add that I doubt Golden had in mind having the Forsaken being against the Tauren, when she had them openly declaring how grateful they were for welcoming and helping them into the Horde in Before the Storm.

And yes, I think it was Magatha inner monologue while considering her options to overtake and subdue the city.
If I recall correctly, the next or previous part has her considering how to deal with the hunters and druids of the other two rises.


#34

Nope, it was a description of how they infiltrated Thunder Bluff, basically from a writer’s perspective.


(Zarao) #35

I’ve just read the entire thing. It wasn’t Magatha, but it wasn’t an impartial description either.

It was presented as a description seen through the eyes of the Grimtotem attackers.
There are several phrases that highlight the fact that it’s said from their perspective. For example:

Those who posed the greatest threats to Elder Crone Magatha had been slain. It was now time to kill without specific need, to strike fear into the hearts of what tauren still remained. They needed to know that the rule of the Grimtotem would have no margin for error and no place for the gentler notions of forgiveness or compassion.

So still, that’s some heavily biased description of the events that took place. And even then, the Forsaken support is taken as an assumption.

Later texts, including BtS, have the Forsaken openly declaring their support of the Tauren people.


#36

Wow, I am amazed by how far you go so you don’t have to concede.

This is the entire passage in which the sentence is that I quoted. No hints of any partiality.

The moon was full over Thunder Bluff, the night clear and cloudless. The tauren were mostly diurnal, and while some activity of some sort was going on at all times, day or night, at this hour of the early morning it was mostly still. The wind wafted the smoke of a few fires upward to the star-filled skies. In their tents, the tauren drowsed.

The Grimtotem moved, shadowlike and stealthy, black blots of ink against the moon-silvered night. Some of them arrived in Thunder Bluff on wyvern back, the beasts’ wings almost as silent as the still night air. Some of them walked, avoiding the lifts and instead climbing the sheer bluff with deadly intent and a grace that belied their bulk. They had been in position for years awaiting this call and had leaped into action within seconds of their notification.

They all carried weapons—garrotes, knives, swords, axes, bows. No guns, nothing that would make noise. Sound meant discovery; discovery meant resistance; and that was not what their matriarch wanted. Their mission was to kill in silence and move to the next victim.

They kept to the shadows, taking their time, moving behind the tents of the first, lowest level of the mesa until they were all in position. Soft hooting sounds then gently punctuated the night; sounds that, even if they were heard, would be disregarded. And then, coordinated, they struck.

Swiftly the Grimtotem assassins moved into the tents. Some targets were known to them—those who were experts in weapons, or were particularly powerful druids or shaman. What good was the power of the bear when one never awoke in time to transform? What did it aid one to be lethal with a sword when one’s chest was already pierced by it? How easily throats were slit when no resistance was offered.

They moved into the center by the small pool, checking their numbers, giving hand signals. They split into two groups. One darted off to Spirit Rise, the other to Hunter Rise. Elder Rise they ignored. That was where Magatha had made her home until this night of nights, and she had left behind loyal subjects who had doubtless already executed every one of the hapless druids unlucky enough to have been present. The old boards of the bridges creaked slightly under the attackers’ weight as they crossed, but these bridges creaked even in the wind, and they had no worries of discovery.

Straight to their victims they ran, leaping atop the shaman who awakened only long enough to gasp and then die. Skychasers they were, a family—dead, down to the last one. There was no need to worry about the Forsaken in the Pools of Vision just below the main level of Spirit Rise. Most of them tacitly supported Magatha, and those who did not had no particular attachment to the tauren or who led them.

On to Hunter Rise.

These were more physically brutal battles. Quick to awaken and extremely strong and fit, the hunters put up a good fight. But they were no match for the Grimtotem, who had the element of surprise on their side, or, eventually, the poison on their blades. Soon enough, the rise was silent, and the assassins moved back to the heart of Thunder Bluff.

Those who posed the greatest threats to Elder Crone Magatha had been slain. It was now time to kill without specific need, to strike fear into the hearts of what tauren still remained. They needed to know that the rule of the Grimtotem would have no margin for error and no place for the gentler notions of forgiveness or compassion.

Thunder Bluff, like a child, would be rebirthed in blood.


(Zarao) #37

Its not a matter of conceding. The text is clearly told in a way that has the writer evoking certain emotions for the reader.

There is no impartiality with sentences like these:

Its a different way of presenting events. The difference an author can make between Telling or Showing.

https://www.lhn.uni-hamburg.de/node/84.html

In this case, the author wanted to make it from the Grimtotem perspective. Not as hard, objective truths or facts.


#38

But you have no proof that the sentence not impartial, and you cannot prove it by saying that the entire passage is biased because most of it is about facts (then the Grimtotem did this, then they went there, etc.).

So you need to give some kind of argument why they wouldn’t support the Grimtotem to actually support your claim.


(Uruk) #39

Considering that the Forsaken were pretty good with the Grimtotem it’s not far fetched to say that they’d stand on their side in the coup.


#40

Yep, also due to the fact that the Grimtotem were the last tribe actively looking for a cure for the Forsaken.