Will the Tauren aid Baine?


(Zarao) #41

The fact that they didn’t side with them against Baine when he eventually showed up seems like a rather valid proof that them tacitly supporting Magatha (as seen from the Grimtotem point of view), meant that many would not interfere either way. Much like Garrosh.

And of course, this would only apply to the ones present there, not to the entire race.

In fact, as i already pointed out, we have a more recent book in which the Forsaken populace is portrayed as supportive towards the tauren people. And specially towards Hamuul, who sided with Baine back in The Shattering.

Considering that they owe their place in the Horde to Hamuul, who was siding Baine in that ordeal, i doubt it a lot.


(Araphant) #42

The Tauren were so good with the Forsaken that they even donated organs for Apothecary research. True story.


(Erevien) #43

Ah I needed that reminder to realise again why we all equally should hate Margatha without any exception. What a cun.t.


(Waygos) #44

Wait a minute, when the events after his escape happened??
I didn’t get any quest after that one…


#45

Tauren heritage armor quest.


(Waygos) #46

ah that explains why


(Uruk) #47

I mean, these are Forsaken we’re talking about. Honor and gratitude aren’t really their thing.


#48

Maybe not so much with honor, vaguely defined as it is but I think they can do gratitude.


#49

This is just my opinion.

This could be a golden opportunity for Activision Blizzard explain one thing, the story forum has debated for months:
Why the leaders of the Horde were so passive towards Sylvanas actions, regarding Teldrassil.

Meaning, why there wasn’t a open outrage right after the event.

Why Baine decided to do something, only when Jaina’s brother was involved.

They could explain, in example that once conscripted to the Horde military, the soldier no longer answers to his racial leader, but to his Warchief.
Which means any racial leader that goes against his Warchief, can see his people punished, by his own army.

Lor’themar states to Jaina at some point he will have to convince his people, of what is happening with the Old God and … Sylvanas.
This can be a clue, if I read the events correctly.

Of course Sylvanas will leave the Tauren, Highmountain troops behind, she wouldn’t be that naive.
Between Forsaken, Orcs, Troll, Blood Elves, Goblins, Nightborne, Zandalari races, that’s still a pretty huge army.

And let’s not forget the surprise attack.

Remember when Varian fleet caught Garrosh fleet by surprise in Cataclysm ?
It was 4 Horde ships Vs dozens of Alliance ships.
Yet he had a enslaved cracken waiting to attack.

Or when Varian sent his elite Generals to help defending Theramore and Garrosh used a mana bomb ?

Sylvanas might pull a rabbit out of her hat.

Cheers.


(Zarao) #50

What were they to gain out of siding with Magatha? Why would they rather side with her, over the ones that genuinely vouched for them?

And even if their concept of Honour is somewhat fluid, as Theist said, they do understand gratitude (something that it expanded upon in Before the Storm).


#51

Because she, in the end, turned out to be the person who had the most welcoming attitude to the Forsaken than any other Tauren leader. She genuinely wanted to help them.


#52

Prediction: If Baine dies, then Magatha will lead the Tauren as High Chieftain. Seems like Blizz 101.


(Zarao) #53

Chronicles, and now books, point at Hamuul as being the one that took said role.

Chronicles vol 3:

The first sign of hope came from an unexpected place: the tauren. An Archdruid name Hamuul Runetotem looked past the undead’s monstrous exterior and believed that they could be redeemed and revived - perhaps not physically but spiritually. He brought the Forsaken ambassadors to meet with Cairne Bloodhoof, and Cairne agreed that the undead should be given the chance to thrive.

Before the Storm:

“The tauren befriended the Forsaken when we were rejected by the Alliance. For that I will always be grateful.” Hamuul Runetotem, currently a thorn in her side, had argued successfully that the Forsaken were capable of redeeming themselves. With free will, they could choose to atone for what they had done after being murdered and enslaved to the Lich King’s will. He had convinced the warchief Thrall, who knew a thing or two about people being seen as “monsters,” to admit the Forsaken into the Horde. Sylvanas would never forget that.

"I’m particularly grateful for all the tauren out there. If not for you, we might all be extinct.” There were representatives of all the Horde races there, but she saw more tauren than any other. It was thanks to the tauren that the Forsaken had been admitted into the Horde. Vellcinda shuddered to think about what would have happened to her people without that protection.

Arguing that the Forsaken faction would side against those that argued such, and knowing the fact that they are genuinely grateful (as seen in Sylvanas and Velcinda POV), makes little sense.

Siding with Magatha would amount for little. And best case scenario we have with the Shattering, is having whatever few Apothecaries working in Vision Pools, being somewhat indifferent towards Magatha, as they had been working alongside her just fine up until then.

But taking them the extra step to the point they’d actively side against the ones that brought them in, is a stretch.


#54

Shows that Hamuul wanted to help the Forsaken as well, no big deal, specifically the Shamans and Druids wanted the Forsaken in so they could cure them.

The rest doesn’t show that Magatha wasn’t the one who supported the Forsaken, and the quest basically says she was.

So stop dancing around the facts for once in your life.


(Aeula) #55

I’d hope not all of them would, but I expect many to.

Tauren took part in arresting Baine, so perhaps not all of them share his mindset.


(Zarao) #56

Shows that HE was the prime reason they managed to be accepted in the Horde. Even Sylvanas notes it.

On the other hand, you have a quest that makes a vague innuendo about Magatha being " one of the proponents". A fact that isn’t highlighted half as much as Hamuul’s role throughout the latest narrative pieces that delve into said decision.

Yeah, but it shows that her role when compared to Hamuuls wasn’t of much importance.

Saying that the Forsaken would turn against him, even when we have Sylvanas point of view about being grateful towards him, is, again, pretty far fetched.
Specially if supported by a biased Grimtotem perspective about SOME Forsaken guys in Thunderbluff, that would TACITLY support Magatha (guys that when time came to actually fight or pick a side, did nothing at all in her favour).


#57

Hybrid elevator-news music intro

Weekly reminder that Baine and Saurfang are still at large. Please report all suspicious activity to your local Dreadguard or Forsaken officer.

Tidies pile of bark slabs and adjusts glasses

In light of the breakdown of communications with Nathanos and the remnants of the Fleet and reports that the Alliance fleet went missing, it can only be assumed that both were annihilated by our glorious Warchief. Rumours of retaliation against Thunder Bluff have led Sylvanas to mobilise a large taskforce to ‘defend’ said location. This reporter expects a crushing victory for the righteous defenders of the Bluff.

Refusing direct orders from the Warchief is easily grounds for execution/joining Baine in prison. Said Tauren might just be ‘following orders under pain of death’. An explanation I’m sure we’ll be hearing a lot in the months to come after Sylvanas being deposed.


#58

But that’s irrelevant.

"She, more than anyone among the elders, feels the tauren and their ways can help the Forsaken find a path back to being human. "

I think that says enoug? And I can’t help but not care about all those irrelevant quotes you are trying to bring on the table. This quote, by itself, proves that Magatha was very important to the Forsaken.

The only thing you’re arguing is that other Tauren also played a role in it - fine, I know, because I know Tauren lore myself. But that doesn’t really prove anything.

Sorry mate, you’re wrong. We have a quote saying that the Forsaken will tacitly support the Grimtotem, we know Magatha counted on them, and there is a reason why they do. So stop trying to twist lore for once in your godforsaken life and let the matter rest.


(Zarao) #59

Irrelevant? They are supposed to dismiss and discard the fact that its thanks to Hamuul they managed to survive and make it into the Horde, and simply kill him once he shows up supporting Baine?.

Doesn’t seem that irrelevant to the story, given how it’s highlighted several times in two different books.

How does a quote that points at “implied tacit support” trump the above?. There was nothing “tacit” about the way Hamuul was praised by several noteworthy Forsaken characters. Leading figures by the way.

Given the Forsaken were grateful towards the fact that they were accepted into the Horde, and not about the tauren additional agenda about wanting to “cure” them back to life, that quote proves little.

So, Sylvanas saying that they are grateful towards Hamuul for arguing in their favour, that they would never forget said kindness, having Velcinda openly stating their support to the tauren for their help, and Chronicles highlighting that it was Hamuul the prime cause for the Forsaken to be welcomed into the Horde…that’s all irrelevant?

Rather take the “tacit support” piece?

We have a quote from a biased perspective that points at some Forsaken tacitly being on Magatha’s side. And a quest that says that she was one of the proposers regarding the Forsaken acceptance into the Horde (and one of most vocal about wanting to make them human).

And you’ve taken that and made this equivalence:

Some Forsaken might tacitly support Magatha”----> “The Forsaken outright support and sided with Magatha in the coup”.

For this to work you’d need:

  1. Forsaken people actually and genuinely fighting for Magatha in said coup: Didn’t happen
  2. Forsaken people dismissing Hamuul’s role and aid in their plea: We know that’s not true.
  3. A specific and unbiased testimony regarding their alliegience: Not really the case, as the text is heavily tilted towards the Grimtotem perspective.

And that’s leaving aside how willing would people be to take the Forsaken residing in Thunderbluff as a representative sample that could be used to know how the whole faction feels about Tauren.

If you want to make a statement about the Forsaken faction apparently prefering Magatha over Hamuul (to the point they’d fight him back or side with the ones that would rather kill him), the evidence provided so far seems rather lacking.

Sorry, but i’m not wrong. And as biased as i might be, in this case it’s your bias against the Forsaken the one that taints your claim most.

As villain batted as the Forsaken are, this certainly wasn’t a case of it.


#60

Ok, that’s enough Zarao for me for the rest of the month. Bye.