With all the talk about "elitism" and "toxicity"

You belive people would be more chill if there were no timer on the M+ dungeons?

Personally I belive that much of this stems from the current gearing process… People who are not good at the game (Not meant offensive, mind) having access to gear they otherwise would not be able to obtain and so the only ways to increase their personal ilvl would be to do content that’s FAR out of their skill-set…

Thoughts?

Now I do all my content with my guild and if we have to pug it is 1-2 people at most so my experiences may vary.

Of course the timer is part of it, it applies pressure and different people react differently to it and it is safe to assume that at least some portion of the people doing m+ get stressed out by the timer.

So far the only “Toxicity” I have encountered was in a m0 funnily enough, which consisted of a pug calling out one of our guildies for doing low damage, which was mostly because said guildie was still in questing gear and just got out of levelling and it was the quickest way to get him raid ready. I would like to add just saying that someone is performing badly is not toxicity in itself it is more the way it is said in my opinion.

As for the last point, yes the learning curve in current wow compared to the gear curve is completely out of whack. It would not be a problem to hand out high gear for Warfronts if the people getting that gear had to learn how to play they class at some point before that.

It is not really a problem if someone never wants to raid or do m+, but as soon as someone does and their gear already vastly outgears normal raids or lower keys while never having to deal with those difficulties to begin with, it leads to them hitting a brick wall, and that is quite frankly depressing because I feel it turns a lot of people away from that content.

A challange is good but a challange needs to be appropriate for the skill level AND gear someone has to teach them. You can’t give someone a well made piano and expect them to be able to play Chopin’s 2nd Sonata just becuase they have a good piano now.

I think there are many people who are “Not good at the game” and some of them simply do not care, which is fine, but I think some who would care simply do not realize it because the game never tells them.

(Sry long one)

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I think bad behaviour exist in all parts of the game because not all people are nice.

Timers have little to do with it.

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We also live in the age of instant gratification so a lot of these people don’t understand that failure is ever an option.

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I don’t think it’s the gearing system, it’s your approach to the game.

The game is binary to me, all games are if we’re being honest, it’s about winning or losing.

Toxicity exist only for video game players with morals, which by the way, always seem to conflict with winning.

Players have been going on about how elitist and toxic the game is for as long as I can remember. Personally I don’t put much store in it being down to any one system other than just the sheer age of the game.

A lot more. People might even start CC that isn’t interrupts and stuns.

Maybe healers and tanks on the forums would throw half a fit because they believe another “DPS affix” has been removed or some such nonsense, but it’d definitely make the game more chill.

Individual character won’t change just because one element of an activity is removed.

Spot On. :nerd_face:

I think that we need a change in the style of WoW for example whens the last time a Sheep was actually used in a PVE environment?.. The only time I can think of is back in TBC days when Heroic Dungeons were actually hard and required some form of CC to be able to do them. All of these classes have various CC,ing abilities but hardly none of them are used in today,s current WoW other than in PVP.

I think they should remove timers from M+ and create dungeons which actually require CC to be completed and/or some form of Challenge bit like the proving ground in MoP.

All of this AOE fest has basically made WoW dungeons a bit repetitive because all dungeons apart from bosses require you to just basically aoe the trash.

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it will tho, not necessarily in this example but in general, environment defines your behavior to a degree

I do think timers add a bit of bad behaviour/mentality in the game. And I was never a fan of speedrunning (which Mythic+ seems to have infected the lower difficulties more of than what I remember before it).

BUT!

The biggest contributor to in-game behaviour is society. And it sure is a different world from 2004. I know I am very different as well. I was always an introvert but I’ve shut myself even more of from people. Not because I can solo in the game, I just can’t stand other people as much any more.

Doesn’t mean I won’t help a friendly person though, always ready to do that. But I won’t go out of my way to find them either.

Sure but you have to remember that removing things that bother some people may create things that bother others. For example, timers in m+ push the group to try their best to get the key done in time. Remove this timer and people will start taking their time or afk in-between making the process much longer.

Well Polymorph was actually heavily used in M+10 last season due to Spawn of G’huun, but most people didn’t like the affix (Infested) precisely because of the fact that you needed to use CC while at the same time feeling massively rushed due to the timer, so I would strongly agree that the timer is being a problem.

Personally I think it’s the degrade, not the timer, that makes for rage.

If the key didn’t drop to a lower level if you miss the timer, you could shrug and try again, but right now the potential is that some imbecile can “wreck your key” by bailing 30 seconds after you start. Or by not knowing how to do their job and wiping you repeatedly.

Without the degrade (and randomisation), it would just be “whelp, there goes that one, shall we re-queue?”

And yes, YES, people would bail the group in order to reset a failure. But at least they’ll have tried and wasted some personal time. If they want to spend hours trying for a +12, is that not up to them? Raiders get to do that. Fail a raid boss, you don’t have to restart the whole instance. You just go back again.

But ultimately it is the combination of LFD, timer, and degrade. If you’re running with guildies and fail - you shrug it off. You pick up your -2’d key for [dungeon you don’t need], and level it up again. When it is a total stranger who you will probably never see again… that is when people get peeved off. The consequences for failure only happen to the keyholder.

…maybe it should degrade everyone’s key, regardless of who’s dungeon it is. Now nobody wants to bail if there is any chance of finishing. Maybe finishing on-time should boost everyone’s eye appropriately. Rewards for all, penalties for all, don’t lay it on one person.

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It’s also a pain that we can’t reroll our keys anymore. Destroying keys and getting replacements at the end was a godsend when you kept getting the same dungeons over and over.

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Yeah, preventing binning off keys you can’t stand really does feel like a ‘fun detected’ moment. It’s really demoralising to know you have to work through a dungeon you hate to get a random roll.

…much like PvP gear.

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No, I don’t think it will if you really think about it.

:thinking:

Toxicity will no doubt still exist if you removed timers in M+, i honestly don’t think there is a solution to toxicity other than being a decent human being but that’s outside WoWs sphere of influence.

I feel fairly confident in saying that all online games have had some sort of toxicity to it though.

We just keep ending up with the same keys over and over. I know it’s RNG but it’s so boring not to get a variety. If we could do one dungeon and reroll all the others it would be so much better.