It would have been significantly more BS had they had the Warchief bending to the wills of a banshee he didn’t trust. I’m merely pointing to the moment where it became clear they were taking the Horde in this direction.
That moment was when Sylvanas was pulled from the shadows, it did not mean she would stop doing her shady stuff, it only meant she would now do those things on a larger scale in full view of the rest of the Horde.
But that would still be the case tho’, no matter how much more bs it would be. They want their cake and eat it without putting in the work.
And let’s be quite honest here, if the Horde leaders didn’t see her doing her shady stuff in WorLK/Cata’ then right there is when this whole thing makes little to no sense.
There is a difference from pulling strings from the shadows and flat out ignoring it.
Following this line of thought we can easily conclude why Varian and Vol’Jin needed to be “removed”.
Zakkaru refered to the death of Cairne as the “castration of the Tauren”.
I think both factions were castrated in order for BfA to happen the way it did.
Cheers.
Of course we could just skip having these conversations at all because in the end Blizz just does what they want. I’m not saying things would’ve been automatically better. But had they wanted to follow a more logical (and arguably more enjoyable) story then they would not have done those particular things.
The Forsaken need to be addressed too, are they supposed to be the Scourge 2.0 or are they supposed to be misunderstood individuals just trying to make their way in this world?
Our problem is that whatever brilliant secret narrative they’re forging for Sylvanas here is coming at the expense of just about -everyone- else. They’ve sacrificed so much, castrated and broken so many races just so that they can pull off whatever twist they’re trying to pull off. I firmly believe that the problem here is that they’re not invested in this world because they weren’t the ones who originally built it, and thus don’t mind ruining everything they can just so they can do what they want.
I am just saying what would happen because the conversation does come down to what Blizzard wanted.
Vol’jin is currently in the story, he has done nothing to change my mind of it being different if he was still alive. He just goes along with the whispers and that is all. Is it really that hard to believe that if he was alive and with the Horde for it to be any different, especially when near enough every other Horde leader is doing it as well?
Not that many more steps to take.
Sometimes I wonder if J. R. R. Tolkien books, had as a many authors, as Warcraft Universe did, what would had happened …
Or even George R. R. Martin.
Vol’Jin along side Sylvanas was the last of the 4 racial leaders from Vanilla.
Remove him and Sylvanas has free reign.
Thrall: exiled.
Cairne: dead.
Vol’Jin: dead.
Baine ? Too young.
As for the other races they haven’t been in the Horde long enough to dictate anything, in my opinion.
Lor’themar: I see his race as guests from Sylvanas.
Better do what she says or else.
Goblins ?
Gallywix is sided with Sylvanas. Profits.
Huojin Pandaren ?
Not relevant.
The Other 3 allied races just came recently, they are still getting used to the Horde.
Cheers.
1-All of War of Thorns !
2-Every CGI with Saurfang and Anduin 
3-Night Elves getting resurrected
4-Zandalari working with Jaina after she had just killed their King
5-Blood Elves killing Blood Elves
6-Night Elves Killing Undead Night Elves !
Yeah, I firmly believe it’s very dangerous to give an intellectual property to someone who isn’t invested in it in the same way as the original author.
We even got a glimpse of what that was like in the last series of GoT. To this day I dislike August Derleth for the way his contributions to H.P. Lovecraft’s lore were completely out of touch with the original works.
Tl;Dr - The Blizzard writers are standard hacks
I don’t know why being an “original” leader of the Horde would gain you so much influence and power. She arguably isn’t even part of the original Horde leaders, the Forsaken were the first people to join the Horde after its reformation.
Thinking that the night elves would finally get their revenge in 8.1 and then getting disappointed hard since they achieved absolutely nothing.
This is going to sound super biased but i don’t think Sylvanas is the issue here. (Not the root of the problem at least, she is indeed one still, a very big one).
As much as it might surprise some, i think the issue here is Anduin.
Its him the one that Blizzard wants to be always immaculate, he is the one that is unequivocally painted as the hero every time, every story (starting with most of the Alliance ones) gravitates towards him.
He is constantly validated, he must always be proven right.
There CAN’T be a “morally grey” war when you have the leader of one side that CAN’T do WRONG (I mean, he physically CAN’T now).
He is being groomed as the supreme hero on Azeroth, and this problem has grown far beyond the initial area of influence (the Alliance), to now encompass the rest of playable factions (the Horde).
Now, the story has everyone twisted and changed to fit in with the underlying message: Anduin is better.
Even the prelude for the expansion already pointed at this. Most of it is centred around him, while the rest are mere props for his majesty to shine. Even Sylvanas turns secondary when compared to him.
In game, things work similarly.
Dissenters are beaten into shape by turning the shadiest ones into full-blown villains that need to be eventually removed (Sylvanas, Gallywix,…), and the moderate into subservient pacifists beyond any logical reason (Baine, Saurfang,…).
What started off hinting at making every Alliance leader a patsy for the Wrynn, and seemed to doom them to play second fiddle for as long as whoever sat on Stormwind’s throne wished, has now devolved to the point EVERYONE on Azeroth has to dance to their tune.
That’s how you end up with the King of Gilneas playing the submissive subject to someone that is supposed to be his equal, or will probably have the Night elves turned into rash and irrational beings that need a good Wrynn finger-wagging (much like Dwarves had in MoP, Draenei mid Cata,…)
This isn’t the characters fault by the way.
Its basically certain writers that can’t keep their bias and fanboyism in their pants.
TLDR:
Yeah, Sylvanas is now Malificent. She has been taken out her place, and thrown into the spotlight, while having the worst of her multiplied by ten. She is the worst, and everyone else is dragged under her.
But how wouldn’t she? Her opposite is being thrown as the ultimate perfect being.
Of course everyone else will end up shuffled around and out their spot in order for it to happen.
Making certain Horde segments take the fall is something inevitable.
PS: And at this point, don’t know if having Vol’jin would’ve changed that. If this was the planned route, we would’ve probably had him turn random-evil instead of Sylvanas.
Vol’jin died because Varian died. Also, can’t have characters on our side who pretty much live inside of Jaina’s and Anduin’s bum’s all the time 31. So they had to get rid of him. Nothing survives human potential purge.
Reasons enough to not push Sylvanas off. Nobody wants Baine. Just look around on social media. Guy is more unpopular than Bush and Trump combined.
She has been on the Horde longer than: Lor’themar, Gallywix or any of the remaining racial leaders, as for Baine the lore goes above and beyond to describe him as a character with a “weak” personality.
How many posts exists saying “Sylvanas has always been evil” on the forums ?
Wouldn’t her nomination make things easier, if you want to writte a villain for the Horde instead of twisting Vol’Jin, character ?
Maybe it’s just me but looking at the way, the BfA characters are portrayed in BfA, we have:
That’s my opinion.
Cheers.
That may be the case but I haven’t seen anything or anyone in-game (correct me if I am wrong) put emphasis being the remaining/original leaders and why that would better themselves at becoming the warchief.
If anything then the Horde should base its leadership on tradition and values, time should only be a secondary value to this.
That depends on whether or not he would have kept as leader and didn’t either abdicate it to Sylvanas (probably more whisper bs) or goes missing for a long time and/or Sylvanas has outmanoeuvred any attempt of him reasserting himself as leader.
Meta reasons. Iconicity, mainly.
Although that would be more a reason for them to stay as part of the faction story cast.
The warchief seat should be given to one willing or capable of conciliating the different aspects that make up the Horde. In a plausible and logical setting that at least tried to continue with the Horde story as an independent and differentiated faction, that is.
Its kind of a mix between the two, really.
Strongly disagree. Baine in the last character who put in anything of value for the Horde ever. His dad was Cairne. That’s the only “good” thing about him. He has no leadership qualities and would sacrifice the entire Horde in some blood voodoo ritual if Jaina/Anduin would order him to do so.
I am absolutely positive that they only gave him unique questline because of the fan outrage, they were genuingly surprised that so many people gave a damn and were constantly asking about him.
They were underestimating his popularity and overestimating Sylvanas, that everyone will be happy to have much more famous character taking his spot, to the point that even Pre-Legion event Sylvanas was already acting as if she was in charge.
I’m getting myself ready for next disappointment as the damage was already done, and his cameo likely will reach dead end.
He is just used as a plot device for that big death entity and nothing of value will likely come out of it.
As was already said above.
Too much was sacrificed to push this narrative, they had to destroy plenty of established lore about both horde and alliance to push this sylvanas “end game” and - while I can speak only for myself - I think that it was certainly NOT worth it.
There is absolutely no contest here. These events were not even bad writing, they were far worse: They twisted the entire universe of Warcraft around them. Warlords of Draenor and time traveling orcs were bad but at least they were contained. It only happened there and could safely be ignored after the expansion.
BfA on the other hand has fundamentally destroyed the Warcraft universe. The only reason why I am still marginally interested in the story is because I want to see how much more they can f*** up 20 years of world building.
I don’t think that they destroyed anything except of the warchief. The story became more ridiculous.