Wow has a progression problem, how can we fix it?

So as some of you who frequent this area will be aware, recently I’ve been actively criticising how Wow handles raiding and the player etiquette around it.

I admit, I have been impulsive and based my opinion almost exclusively on my own experience with raiding, but now I’ve come to a realisation.
I don’t despise Wow’s raids, I think if it was more approachable to learn I’d enjoy it more, but that’s besides the point.

The key conclusion I’ve come to is the level of time, effort, and social planning, the reward is not equivalent in the slightest.
In Runescape if you put 3 solid years of playing into it, strive for the strongest gear, obtain the rarest items, that progress still has value several years later, your invested time still has a visible reward, there’s minimal power creep too, so if you’re the strongest, you’re still among the strongest years later.

Wow has no such things, a person who’s played with determination at endgame for 18 years, their progress and their power can be overtaken in a matter of weeks by someone speed levelling and then running M+, and then all that progress is essentially reset when a new expansion hits anyways.

All that time and effort does not retain it’s value any more, return to the game after 3 years and you’re strength is completely irrelevant, your hard earned raid gear and legendaries don’t mean anything.

The reward does not warrant the effort.

So now I’ve highlighted my core issue with raiding, M+, Wow’s progression systems as a whole, I’ll address my hopes for how they’re actively already working on it in Dragonflight.

Professions are back with a bang! Apparently we can even craft mythic gear, which is great! If I can harvest the heart of a raid boss, say some kind of Molten Dragon, and use that powerful reagent to forge a fiery Warhammer, and that specific Warhammer’s power stays relevant through the expansion, that’s great! I’ll happily earn and work towards that reward and upgrade it over time because it feels like a rewarding investment of my time, my time invested still has value, my time hasn’t been thrown in the bin because there’s been 3 progression systems scrapped since I forged it.

“But Bludtooth! How can gear retain value through new expansions!”
Allow me to explain.

Blizzard, I implore you to change Wow’s business model, you charge us the price of a full game per expansion, when that entire expansion becomes irrelevant the moment the next one launches, if we unsubscribe we no longer have access to a product we have purchased.
Follow Runescape and ESO.
Put a cap on levelling at 70 with Dragonflight, no more levelling, minimise power creep so my Warhammer is still strong in 5 years, and just sell expansions in the modular fashion that ESO does, just add a variety of content for us to play with each expansion, adding more options of weapons and gear we can pursue, more talents for more class builds etc.

With the state the game is in right now our invested money does not retain it’s value.
With the state the game is in right now our invested time does not retain it’s value.
With the state the game is in right now your own narrative, quests and gameplay systems do not retain their value.
The approach you’ve had for years now is not sustainable, even without borrowed power there’s only so long you can make stats go up before you want to squish them again, making progress irrelevant and throwing peoples time spent in the bin, again.

I love world of warcraft, and I do want it to thrive, I want more people playing it, I want to keep on playing it!
But ultimately I cannot recommend any one play the game when their hard earned money and all-too limited time is treated so disgustingly.

For the record I’m super excited for Dragonflight, it looks amazing! But if my time invested is rendered null and void eventually, then it’s still a poor investment of a customers money and time.
Runescape’s got it right, please learn from it.

Well as i seen DF will have alot of casual/solo content … one of them is like outdoor thorghast like thing more u farm the mobs more stronger and faster u can kill them and u get recorses what u can use to buy gear from vendor so u will do easly progress from outdoor activities …

dragon flight raceing
cliff climbing
photo shoot
crafting
fishing

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I’m not talking about how hard or easy it is to progress, I’m talking about how that progress doesn’t retain any of it’s value.

Also, the easier an experience, the quicker the reward, also means the more forgetful it is.
On a psychological level we want easy rewards, we don’t want to put effort into things, but when the reward is something we’re invested in and it has longevity and it retains that value it once had, we find the drive to push through and earn it, we form an emotional attachment to the reward, and if it was difficult to obtain than other’s respect our grit and determination.

It’s exactly the same psychology that applies to real life, if the reward for working doesn’t retain it’s value, if there’s no sense of meaningful, lasting progress, if it seems utterly pointless, then people don’t want to work a job. (wish more employers would realize that lol)
We play video games to avoid that, it’d be nice if Wow didn’t provide the same feeling of non-fulfilling rewards.

I LOVE all the world content they’re adding, it isn’t power related (so far), and if those things are built on going forward, that is a good time investment, your time invested isn’t thrown into the bin.

But I’m more so specifically talking about player power progression, how our character’s combat strength grows etc.
I can farm invincible from ICC and if another player sees that, that means something, it still has a rare drop rate, it’s something people can see you with and be like “damn! I’m still farming that!”
That mount is from Wrath of the Lich King, from a raid that released 13 years ago, and yet it still holds value.

But if I spent the next 4 weeks working myself to the mental bone farming M+ and raiding, that progress is rendered unimportant and irrelevant by the time we get to heroic/mythic 0 in Dragonflight.
that might seem fine for now, but long term? in 2-5 expansions time? that’s when a level squish happens, that’s when a stat squish happens, that’s when peoples time and money invested is utterly discarded.

The professions and all the cosmetic fun world content is definitely a step in the right direction for players of all kinds, but the rest of the games systems, even with Dragonflights improvements, are not sustainable unless they change their approach to releasing content.

well if we talking about long term best will be if they add evergreen power system instead of barrowed powers one way is simple make multi talents trees like legion arcifact weapon a passive skill tree azarite a skill tree a covenet skills as a skill tree + normal DF skill tree thats like 4 skill trees with evergreen powers … prity sure can make lore what make sence how players ended up getting them aswell …

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Yeah, that’s kind of what I’m proposing.

Rather than focus on getting stronger and pumping numbers up endlessly, focus on adding more variety and player choice in that.
Rather than let us level up another 10 levels in 11.0, cap it off at 70 and just give us more talents to choose from where we can experiment with different builds and different gear.

We don’t even really need lore to explain that, I’ve recently been watching a guy named Josh Strife Hayes, I watched his Runescape video and that’s why I think Wow should learn from it.
As he describes, in Runescape “you are not the chosen one, you are someone who CHOSE to be the one.”
just give me a world full of cool things to do, cool things to obtain, cool challenges to overcome, and let those cool things I’ve done or earned keep their value as a cool thing.

Also if they cap us at level 70, that’s a nice number that isn’t too scary to new players, and if with each alt you can choose where to level and progress, more people will level alts, which means then they’ve got incentive to flesh out all of the class/racial fantasy.

I’d be absolutely fine with growing my character, getting to 70, and stumbling into the realm of death to stop an evil overlord from re-assembling existence, that’s just typical RPG story telling, Man spawns → man gets strong → man gets stronger → man kills God.
But don’t have some forced plot with sloppily written and inconsistent characters where I’m portrayed as this “chosen one” even though 5 minutes ago I was a recruit on Exile’s Reach.

anyways that’s my going off on a tangent about the wider game lol,
main point is they need to seriously rethink their approach to expansion releases and player power for the sake of the long term health of the game.

look on game like elder scrolls online where max level is still only level 50 and it existed for years still new xpacs once a year and new content every 3rd month :rofl:

i miss the old blizzard what stole stuff from other games and made it better …

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Yeah! a new player can see the new expansion, buy it, start at level 1 and be playing the expansion that they saw advertised, WITH their friend who could have been playing since launch!

In Wow, a new player will see dragonflight advertised, buy it, then go through a rather lackluster tutorial island, then be shipped off to BFA, then be zipped up into Shadowlands with absolutely no context.

honestly I’m not going to recount it again here but I have written extensively about how poor Wow’s new player experience is.
It’s a topic I feel not enough of the playerbase is talking about, because they don’t really care about a new players experience, so long as they’re getting new content themselves.

While Wrath is my favorite expansion, it did set up the game on its downward slope. Seasons literally ruin the game as an RPG. It is more of an arcade action game.

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my fav was legion becurse i played sub rogue do i have to say more ? :rofl:

Definitely.

Wow does have a lot of RPG gameplay components… but they’re all tied together with a piece of cheese, none of those components have any weight, you’re not invested in those choices.
I started in WoD, and have I ever given a fine grain of poopoo about what gear I had?
no.
So long as my Ilvl got pumped up, I’d replace my gear in a second and sell the old piece of gear to the nearest vendor.

But my green two handed sword that does 4-6 damage, that I looted from a Quillboar in the barrens in Wow classic?
I LOVE THAT SWORD!

There’s no weight or attachment to gear, so we endlessly farm more gear, and then blizzard makes that progress irrelevant so then we farm gear AGAIN.

It’s an MMORPG that is currently bereft of any RPG.

Legion was my first expansion launch, and while I definitely enjoyed it’s frequent world content updates, it did introduce almost everything I’m criticizing in this post. :rofl:
It also introduced the whole “you are the chosen champion of concept-walking lord!”
I can appreciate being a high ranking member of the horde or alliance like in WoD, but Legion really did put the “main character” stuff into absolute overdrive.

Its all fault of making game more acessible. More difficulty levels you have higher power creep ocures. If your power inflation hit certain threshold you suddenly have to make drastic catch up systems so players doesnt have 1000% power difference between themself as game would simply become unplayable for anyone what do not participate in latest content.

And becouse WoW have this absolutly insane powercreep we also have insane catch up systems what invalidates our progress every single patch. Calling out new patch content as new season is just fancy way to say nothing you did matter becouse we had to reset your progress to not have big power difference between players.

So yes its all symptom of making game more acessible by adding tons of difficulty levels.

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imagon peoples lost a 12 vs 1 in bfa becurse the dude had BIS currapted gear :rofl:
u just chillin doing ur own bissness then comes a dude just procking u with azarite and curraption boom u ded in less then 1 sec :stuck_out_tongue:

Another area where it can learn from Runescape really.

For those who don’t know, Runescape has several methods of playing, if you want to literally just be a crafter that never embarks on adventures, you can!
but if you want to challenge yourself, if you want to rise above the rest, there’s the Iron Man challenges.
it’s something you pick at the start, and it puts literal restrictions on your ability to party up and trade with others, all resources you need, you need to earn yourself, all gear you need crafted, you need to craft it yourself, and if you have help with a boss, you do not get any loot dropped.

It’s those kind of self-set challenges that Wow should embrace, giving people who want that challenge the ability to do so, and acknowledging it with particular titles/gear rewards, WITHOUT putting the entire player bases’ progression into a state where catch up is needed.

And because there’s minimal power creep, completing these challenges is a permanent reward, your hardships haven’t been rendered a waste of time because of catch up systems, someone who does that challenge now will still be among the strongest in several years time.

The current system Wow has is REALLY not sustainable, I think this is atleast a long the lines of the solution. Obviously Wow can’t literally just copy Runescape’s system, they’re two drastically different games, but the sentiment and approach and philosophy of it is definitely something Wow could stand to learn from.

lols runescape and dragon claws 1 shoot :stuck_out_tongue:
does Jadex still own Runescape or … ?

It definitly isnt sustainable if Blizzard wants wow to keep going. There is only so many times you can take players work on the game and invalidate it before they realize they just wasting their time. Any seasonal game at start is like popular and as seasons come and go more and more people drop out as its just isnt fun to see your progress conatanly invalidated.

Ufortunaly Blizzard push their acessability ideology into all their games and i am pretty sure they wont change till they hit rock bottom and realize thst maybe they should just make great mmo for players what enyoj mmo games. And not chase every single participstion number in the world.

Thats why love Riot they legit just always trying to make best possible game without having this side thoughs about how we gona butcher our game so it will appeal as many people as possible.

Look at Valorant. They made what is in their heads best possible fps and as slow start this game had its now most popular fps in the world.

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Yes, it’s still in active development, and there are two games, Runescape old school and Runescape 3.
Runescape old school was released because some people didn’t like the direction the game had moved in, but then that game also has it’s own dedicated dev team, and has developed past the point where it had initially moved into Runescape 3.

I’ve yet to play it myself but I will be doing soon, but it looks like it’s the best value for money and time MMORPG you could possibly play.
because all content and all high end gear stays relevant, you can have a 3 year long break and STILL be among the stronger end of the playerbase.

Yeah, Wow as it currently is… whilst the name still holds renown, the game itself, there really aren’t many people who see it and want to try it, the playerbase is fading at a faster and faster rate, and even if Dragonflight alone is the best expansion ever, that alone won’t save the game long term.
It’ll pump numbers up for a few months, as every expansion does, but the number of consistent players will continue to dwindle unless they make serious changes to the over all design and business model.

lolz i was asked to come work for Jagex back in the days when Runescape 2 came out :rofl:
but i sed no my english is so bad …

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well that’s a fun bit of trivia :smiley:

but yeah, still going strong, still got an extremely active and dedicated playerbase

only time i seen a GM in wow was back in 2005 on Moonguard US in SW playing hide and seek with players afther that have not met a single one …

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I see two problems with the idea of locking progress at a particular character level or gear set up.

  1. Many players would reach the max level and feel done and leave.
  2. It would kill an aspect of the game that I (and many others) enjoy, farming old dungeons and raids of achievements, mounts, pets and mogs.

And if you were to have infinite power progression with no resets nor catch ups then you’d discourage any new players to join, especially in competitive areas of the game.

I do think that we’ve had overly rapid gear treadmill for the last (at least) three expansions. I’m not sure how we slow this down. When Bliz try to give gear at a slower pace the playerbase resents it (understandably). I think gearing itself should be done slightly faster but that we keep that gear slightly longer. We need other ways to progress that isn’t entirely gear in between these gearing phases, maybe enchants and gems could add some small degree of power to keep players engaged in content.

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