Ww undertuned : consequence on play life

Classes Monk
1

Above all other issue ww actually have (let’s sum it with one word : undertuned), this one might be the worse.

Sure im not a top world, but even with my rating and exp, I’m rarely the good ham you want in your team to do mm+ (I never had a pick), nor the one in raid. I think I got picked up in mythic RAID two time, I suppose that’s the 5% physical dmg I carry because lots of other spec were performing WAY better in every area overall. Dps chart doesnt lie, and when you are 30K under a more performing spec, wich is undergeared compared to you, well you feel bad, because as a dps you are in this spot to carry dps. Sure it could be me not playing well from time to time , but most of the time I tend to do it in a good way, and frankly da output is not here :slight_smile:

while my friend war or rogue, got picked up fast, you know why :smiley:

For mm+, I have the luck to have a guild team, for now. Untill they realize they’d be better off with another dps that can perform better? this or reroll. TBH, idk why they keep me. maybe not much option for now in our guild lol. I feel bad!
looking top 100 leader board, they are tree ww monk the other are bm. enuf’ said.

anyone else share the feeling?

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2

You have said windwalkers overtuned

But have said WW is weak, overtuned means overpowered, im unsure if english is ur first language, so thought id mention this incase u arent aware or gotten the wrong word.

If ur refering to the class being weak, undertuned is the correct word.

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thanks for claryfing, it’s a matter of how you view it. I should have said underpowered for clarity.
I said it in the way of having been turned so much, that ww monk is much more a shadow of what it used to be and people are now seeing it, so they pick something else.

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4

agreed.

MoP design was sooo much better then todays.

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5

I main a monk for the past 6 years because i really like the class, not only one spec of this class.
I change spec to whatever is better every season. One season i might play Brewmaster, one i might play Windwalker, then Mistweaver, or even 2-3 specs same season. Im usually the only monk in my guild for the past years, so i play which spec is better every tier. First three seasons of SL in example i played MW. Then i changed to WW. Now im still WW but i might change again to MW next tier with the tuning.
If windwalker doesnt make you enjoy game, change to brewmaster.
Thats the beauty of being a hybrid with ALL 3 roles available.

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…this is your answer to these issues? I do not not mean to be sarcastic, but you are a serious challenger…

What if I like ww the most?

What if …ho wait… there’s so few monk already everywhere it must be because you can play the three roles, so when when one of them suck you can switch sure! :smiley:
a bit naive in my eyes :slight_smile:

Why there are so few monks everywhere for real? it’s because two monk spec on three suck right now, it’s like a punishment for being somehow overtuned @ SL.

It’s not because you can switch or reroll that a spec or even a class must stay undertuned. BTW, some other class /spec are in the same boat too. So far, there is no sign of the dev team actually realise ww real game issues. Beside sky reach suicide ability getting a work around and a buff to ST dmg ending somehow as a mitigated nerf.

these days, sadly it look like blizzard dev team is only doing sim, they’re blind in the real game (there is not much mechanic’s nor affix’s in a sim). That’s partially why you see these buff/nerf cycling across many spec of the game.

You got a point anyway, in our team composition, I’m seriously considering switching to BM not because I want it, but because * I feel* ww monk dps can somehow be a limiting factor right now in the 20’s and not even mentionning above keys. the team is : Rdrood,warprot,sub rogue,mage, and ww monk. what’s in the balance for the switch? the war can do so MUCH BETTER in ALL situation as a DPS.

Look at team composition of the first 100 team, nothing more needed as explanation, a few days ago there was 3 monks, 2 bm and one ww. over 500 top players.

Now, do you see my point? or not at all? if ww wasnt underperforming, I could continue to play it and feel good, as in “im doing my job in the team”, but that is not my feeling atm. Team is kind and say we’ll get over it, they are maybe right, maybe not.

When we’ll hit 421, we might somehow roll on the 20’s (name is overgeared) but in the meantime playing in the edge of our progress with a ww monk it is complicated in real mm+ situations to compete against a war or a rogue. ( ho… and ret pal, dh, lock, balance, etc…)

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7

Xddddddddddd the only thing that needs to be addressed is ST

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maybe from a BM pov. But…
As ww , tell me what’s your opening peak burst 5 target over 30s, and then tell me your sustained aoe on 5 targets over 10 mins fight, then i’ll tell you what some other spec can do with 30 ilvl below or what other non undertuned spec can do at equivalent gear.
you’ll be shocked 100% genuine !

IMO, both aoe and of course ST need to be adressed. For ww monk, there are too much of target cap and dmg cap stuff over x number of target, while most aoe “true” class have a target limit of 8 after that damage is reduced. On big pull, this is a issue. Not much in raid (at least nm and hm), of course, because the overall raid can balance weakness across the whole team. mm raid is a whole different dog, where you start to see issue taking more than 1 monk (unless it’s a tank or eventually a healer).

so what spot we are supposed to be in as ww monk? hybrid-dps? means i can do something else than dps’ing , like healing? nope, well not much. like tanking? nope, well not much. kicking/rupting stuff? yes, this we do. where’s my hybrid role? ho i got it I must change spec , that’s the hybrid thing :wink:
Having good toolkit doesnt necessary means we’re op, stats doesnt lie nor does real game playing experiences !

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a) People play FOTM classes, aka change from meta to meta. Monk has always been an underplayed class. Season 1-2 SL Windwalker was meta yet people didnt change to monks.
b) People above some level play roles or even multiplte roles, they dont play specs, and they can adapt easily. If they are very good tanks they can play all tanks, etc.

top 100 means nothing. If class A is 0.5% better than class B these players are at a skill level to change to class B.

For 97% of people classes and specs mean nothing. You can literally time 20s without talents. Up to 22 doesn’t matter what you play, its more of a skill issue than getting carried by spec. Just because some specs are able to carry bad or mediocre players (like shadowlands resto shamans vesper totem, or destruction warlocks rain of fire go brrr) doesn’t mean its always needed.

Just because at a 20-21 even FF mobs die super fast and a warrior can do maybe more dmg than you doesn’t mean you need that extra damage, that means you are killing mobs fast.
You are telling me you had issues timing a smooth 20 with zero deaths due to windwalker lacking dps? At 417 equipped?

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I didnt saw your point untill your last phrase, beside saying to me “NO you’re wrong on everything”… but…
please show your main, so I can see. Better, show me a monk main this ext, show us your rating please. I like to know to who am I talking. I bet you dont play monk I’m pretty sure…

no, sir. you cant at 417-418, unless you have a fotm team composition. you live in a different universe… where only ilvl matter, no bugs, no affix, not spec weakness/strenght, no human error, no unbalance, no overtune, no undertune… I feel you just came because you disagree and tryed to ostracize not human, but facts instead…Everything you are just saying general bull ***** straight out of your mouth… most common people are stuck in 16’s or even lower lol…open your eyes… basicly you are insulting them. reading you, everything mean nothing but your point. very unpleasant. there is no room for communication either, not a single argument backed by a fact, a stat, or a true gaming exp.

there is a clear gap as a ww monk, and it’s not .5% , live outside sim please. Many factor in this. Since you look to know how ww works prolly even better than me, I dont need to explain this point lol.

there is absolutely no usefull point in your post, beside saying there might be a skill issue.

Y, of course, im not a SIM.
so let people who are actually playing ww monk this ext write please, thanks. Unless you proove me wrong and show me a ww monk main, I’d apologyze then.

you have clearly have no clue on MDI or leaderboard team composition.

this one I very much like it, you obviously never came accros a competent war this ext.

well, not much use in prooving you wrong, i dont even see the point in doing so, I think you are too much of the kind that is always right. so please continue ignoring ww real game issue, and continue playing in your closed universel! Because we’re clearly not playing same game at all or not on the same level IDK. thank you!

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I dont know where my first answer went… must be another wonderfull bug, anyhow this one is better but I had to swap toon

Everybody (that doesn’t play it) seems to put WW in a really good spot.
thank you for your comment, but you clearly not playing ww monk this ext. Please proove me wrong. I’d apologyze
I must disagree for the most part, you are clearly not playing the same game , but you are playing the forum for sure.

a) People play FOTM classes, aka change from meta to meta. Monk has always been an underplayed class. Season 1-2 SL Windwalker was meta yet people didnt change to monks.
b) People above some level play roles or even multiplte roles, they dont play specs, and they can adapt easily. If they are very good tanks they can play all tanks, etc.

A) underplayed for many good reason, thanks prooving me right.
B) this is irrelevant to any issue concerning ww monk

top 100 means nothing. If class A is 0.5% better than class B these players are at a skill level to change to class B. For 97% of people classes and specs mean nothing. You can literally time 20s without talents. Up to 22 doesn’t matter what you play, its more of a skill issue than getting carried by spec. Just because some specs are able to carry bad or mediocre players (like shadowlands resto shamans vesper totem, or destruction warlocks rain of fire go brrr) doesn’t mean its always needed.

Sadly it means way more than you think. Please look carefuly to top 100 leaderboard on raider IO, and look also very carrefully the team composition. MDI is just a show, this means nothing, I’d agree right away.

No, sir, you cant time 20’s as easy as you pretend , most people are stuck in the 16’s. the huge majority of people in fact, for a ton of reasons you can easily imagine. In fact DF’s 20 feel like higher SL key , but that is intented by Blizzard.

Just a quick note , SBG & COS, while “easier”, are even out of equation for most casuals players, but this is not much relevant to ww issue again…

I dont understand your last point, im not asking for ww to became op, just to be on par with other aoe or st dps, that is absolutly not the case atm. But since I bet your are not playing ww monk at all in real game situation, you cant possibly know. As ww there is simply no way to beat or be on parwith a class that has a target cap of 8 while ww have a target cap of 5 on SCK/FOF and 3 on BK. Further more, FOF’s doesnt do full damage even on 4 secondary target. That’s one of the big issue atm, on huge pull for example.

Just because at a 20-21 even FF mobs die super fast and a warrior can do maybe more dmg than you doesn’t mean you need that extra damage, that means you are killing mobs fast.
You are telling me you had issues timing a smooth 20 with zero deaths due to windwalker lacking dps? At 417 equipped?

I’m not telling you something in particular, sir. You came here to write things you have not much clue on from my pov.
And since blizzard just ignore for the most part what is written here, I still do it with the hope of someone from blizzard will actually read it. And why not investigate? If not for this reason, why posting ? We all do it, but you!

Anyway, yes, I feel I need extra damage to fullfill my role, I play everyday with my team, or in raid, I can tell a few thing right, I’m pretty sure. There are hilarious thing to do with some other spec right now, sir.

AS I said, earlier to someone else , playing a ww , please sir, tell me what’s your opening peak burst 5 target over 30s, and then tell me your sustained aoe on 5 targets over 10 mins fight, then i’ll tell you what some other spec can do with 30 ilvl below or what other non undertuned spec can do at equivalent gear under same parameters, or even on 8 targets. im not talking sim here, just in case…

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I said that you can time 20s without talents. I never said the average player that zerged through content without running enough keys to progressively gain needed experience linear to ilvl can. Just because a lot of people eventually got to 415+ ilvl does not mean they are able to run higher level content effectively. It means that gear drops everywhere and is high ilvl. What 95% of people lack is EXPERIENCE. You can’t gain experience if you purposely avoid certain keys or keys above X level because they are “hard” all season long.

Friends of mine avoided Ruby Life Pools, Nokhud Offensive and Azure Vault all season long. If we go into a 20-21 with them right now they might fail mechanics because they lack experience.

Ran my alt plenty of keys (40 to be precise for 40x infusion drops, 5 sparks one was staff) past 3 weeks at mid levels (16-17s) to gear up. I always would get an alt of a high io player over a fresh player or midrange io player even if these alts were 10 ilvls lower, because 10ilvl cant compensate bad playing/lack of mechanic skills/lack of experience.

Then people wouldn’t play WW at all. Its literally so easy to reroll, you need like 4 hours 60-70 via TW, then just 2-3 weeks to hit 415+ (at least what i did on my alt). You have enough time to change if you really dont like WW this season and wanna push higher than 22s. It’s faster to reroll to a meta class than blizzard adjust numbers, so reroll. Up to 21-22 doesnt even matter what you play as long as the run is smooth, you avoid mistakes, deaths and anything that will cost you time.
Play what you feel comfortable with unless its a 3 buttons meta class and your goal is to push as high as possible.

(SBG/COS are outliers :stuck_out_tongue: my shadow was able to time a +21 pug 3rd week at 70 with 25 deaths, this is stupid. And also reveals that timer is super generous).

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Ok, experience is a thing. Meta class 3 “smash button” is a thing too as opposed to button bloat, niche playing , too. I feel we finaly somewhat understood each other , but let me phrase it another way :slight_smile:

Out of all other thing that could be done, the mains 3 issues are rather simple.

-ww’s aoe suck ballz if we dont have a streak chi-ji proc and align all planet of solar system (aka usual gameplay ww)

-ww’s ST simply suck in all scenario possible even speced right for it (wich is btw totaly amputating aoe, it’s hilarious!)

- "One Build To Rule Them All " base and spec tree design are lackluster : variation of abilities are maybe 1 to 3 choice across all ww monk I look upon , and they dont impact the main build it self, it’s only situation stuff.

Right now, the spec is kinda frozen in one build …

there are so many way to fix this, from the deep rework , from small touch as addin node connexion, remove the obvious baseline stuff, etc…

they could also leave dmg as is, but rise chi-ji proc chance, that would make it for aoe’s. it’s rather simple to implement w/o touching much the base damage of the “so-op aoe’s” of the ww.

about reroll, I do have a few (in the 390-395), and usually end up with every class at least xp caped… but I dont like how reroll system works in wow. there are still a few things left behind on main when you switch, even if blizzard did a few steps in a better direction. I hope, They’ll unleash more functionnality later in the next seasons.

Also my team isnt in favor of rerolling, they’re the kind sticking to a class unless there is a nerfbat of doom hiting them too hard… and reroll is time consuming, you can prolly hit 405 very easy, 415 it will take time as you said, maybe more than you said. Above 415 it’s like hiting a wall. But that’s still not relevant to ww issue in my eyes , rerolling because a spec is lacking, is just a player work around.

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What i did if you are interested doing it too.
Fresh char to 70. List my key as: “bonus valor”.
Ran my m+2, get 200 valor, derank again to 2. If my new key was a new dungeon sweet, run again 2, finish derank to 2. If new key was a dungeon i had not run so far then i would do a m+3. I spent 2 afternoons each week. I did 5-6mins runs so you can expect 6-8 per hour (remember if you invite people that have timed 20s or you do it in an organized group that has timed 20s everyone has teleport which is insane time saving while doing this method).

Tl;dr in 2 weeks running 4 afternoons total 3 hours each session you can expect:
4 days x 3 hours x 6 dungeons x 200 valor = 14.400 valor (obviously as i said i did it after valor cap remove).
Then add 1x18s, 7x16s first week for vault, 4x18s, 4x16s second week for vault.
After that you can fill with extra 16s or 18s for infusion drops, total you need 40 if you make a 2h weapon. Goal was to keep valor, use some placeholder items and pump drops 402+ so to use as less valor as possible. At least thats what i did.

My alt now is 416,3 and its 4th week at 70. But last 10days i got like only 2ilvl. Remember 418 is crafted and 2400 for 415 is easy lets be honest. We are talking about ALTS of people that wanna PUSH 20s++

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thanks but… that is no secret, a valourous friend have been doing even worse grinding since then, on many toon at once, but I personnaly dont want to handle that, I have a life :slight_smile:
I’ve been doing it on a lowered scale since function released, but anyhow! that kind of grind for a reroll , i dont like it and it’s still not a solution to an undertuned spec!

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Everyone has a life outside wow thats why shouldn’t spend gametime on subpar experience.

If you don’t have a lot of time to play you need to decide: do you change and push keys or you adapt to what you have, its simple.
It’s just 3 weeks x 12 hours a week what keeps you away from doing 22s+ on a meta class. Can skip m+ this char and focus on something else.

As a WW i find my dmg to struggle when tank is not really good and can’t consistent pull 5-7 mobs (2-3 packs) but purposedly underpull and that is because we have bad damage outside cds. I hate such tanks. But also group need to be able to coordinate for good interrutps/cc/stuns.

Other than that you really need a Grieftorch or a Boon already. So you can use a trinket every 1 min together with brew and xuen/clones every second pack, and always try to play 5-7 mobs. You need to be able to Touch of Death cleave every 1,5min at least 4 mobs. If you underpull rip your damage.

Obviously on low level keys (up to 18) none care about damage as the mobs die really fast and classes with frontloaded burst damage with shorter cds than you will outdmg you.
However this is not an issue.

To give you an example of what i hate: tanks that refuse to pull an extra pack onto enforcers at CoS (at least key levels i run 20-21). If i use my cds to kill the pack prio to enforcer then i dont have cds for enforcer. If i use my cds at enforcer then i dont have for miniboss. However if they pull the pack together and we cleave it instead of prio focus ST i have some cds for this pack and some cds for mini boss. Same goes for tanks that refuse to pull a pack at first boss to cleave.
Our only issue is ToD cleave that is less effectived the higher key you run.

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seriously cant you just agree on something?
no everyone doesnt play it same way, and dont answer i didnt say it or implyed it.

About boon, and btw many other xept grieftorch, I have all those trinket, there are situational, and most of the time not worth it, even if I can move in the case of the boon by two self means. It doesnt worth the trouble for a minor gain against the stone. In my opinion the only real game use for the boon is to cheese a mechanic… the sim will get you to do bad thing…
BTW, since you are pointing it out, the stone is a better thing in most real game case. Stop the SIM please! I ask for it again.
Another thing is, it’s not desirable that a trinket is anything 6 to 8% percent of an overall, ok ? ww monk clearly lack over 5 target AOE, and ST damage in every situation you can imagine, period again. Last but not least, if I need a trinket to balance ST, it is a FAIL of ww st core damage. it’s an error! it shouldnt work that way.
you dont main a ww in 20’s and over, you cant possibly know…stop…please this non sense, you clearly dont run this level key with aww monk, ifso show your main then…

Also I didnt ask for advice on how to play, or what to use, you are hijacking this post!

nobody should have to do this to push with a better spec, nobody, period. you are blind…

About TOD cleave, is a clunky design. There are bugs where cleave doenst hit correclty boss for example or even main target. I’m suprised you didnt found out already.
One more thing, when you talk “itemization”, dont forget to mention it is a pure luck system, and it’s bad, really bad for some. Blizzard even acknowledged this and gonna implement more deterministic way of acquiering item, but again this is not relevant to ww issues.

but again you cant possibly know… thank you I got your point, everyone reading this had, ww has no issues for you. but please stop hijacking this post.

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Sir, we all got your point, ww has no issue for you, but stop hijacking this post please. you want to give advice to someone that already know all of this. there is no point beside playing the forum ans showing your science… please, cant you see it?

I didnt ask for advice on how to play / what to use / etc, imo you talk about thing you cant possibly know since you dont play ww as a main. So stop it please, and get your eyes elsewhere than on SIM please.

to note a few only because im tired of rewriting all,

tod cleave is clunky design, it has bug on main and secondary target where it will not hit for it’s normal damage , the first hit. I’m surprised you didnt mentionned it, this show me you dont play ww as a main this ext, so please again could stop hijacking this post?

having a mandatory trinket to improve ST, or even AOE, it’s a fail design again. Trinket shouldnt not be mandatory, in any way. Even blizzard said it! they want to reduce the impact of trinket on spec. that’s a good point because any trinket doing 6 to 8% of your overall, it’s a fail design. but Blizzard is used to this, they do it each time, then nerf. then do it again. then nerf. they use too much sim , like you!

and this forum auto supressing post is a thing by itself. edit too much post get auto deleted, what a wonderfull function. but i supposes everything is fine, as ww?

yeah, so ww need a fix finaly ? your own paradox. every post you made here, is to say, ww is fine. but look, what?!! Ok I got it! thanks for your participation, but a last time stop hijacking this post please…

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https:// prnt.sc/CsWZ7dt795GK
This is my WW, i main dps this tier because im in the same guild 9+ years and since we rotate roles per tier so everyone can be happy its my time to dps.

I never said ToD is nice design, i would also like 5-6% ST dmg buff. I prefer SL S2-3 necrolord WW than this.

Since i pug almost all my keys many of my ToD windows are awkward:
a) “waste” it on just 1+1 mobs
b) postpone for better use but ending up overpostponing a 90sec cd

Obviously if i went with a set group (ill prolly do that season 2) i could have had better use of ToD due to my group would play around it. At PUGs people tend to play more safe usually due to lack of coms.

Do you have an example from warcraft logs? Do you mean doesn’t track overkill damage?

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i havent played since Wotlk, came back because i read dragonflight is amazing etc and i saw this Monk class, only class i actually want to play, but it seams they will just nerf them even more in the upcoming patch, so whats the point of playing and giving them money for something that is not an enjoyment to play. Started ff14 couple of days ago, it not bad at all for now.