A lot of combos are game changing which is what I was implying with this thread is that I do not think that high rolling a combo should win you the game.
The same way that the Voidlord spam was a joke and Jade Druid, Pirate Warrior, like Skull of the Manari.
I think a lot more of the game should be based around the actual decks and not the current cards in hand for example if the mage does high roll the combo early on it,s almost unanswerable and basically insta win,s the game yes this might happen 1 out of 100 games but by the same token it could happen often enough for someone to actually get lucky with it and go far in rankings based upon the deck.
I think that there should not be combo,s which exist which can outright win the game just because you high rolled them.
It would be like playing a game of poker and the dealer dealt out 5 cards and that was your hand and your opponent gets given a Royal Flush meanwhile you get dealt 2 pair the game was decidede there and then but you cannot bluff in HS as everyone knows the decks what to âexpectâ on what turns âIfâ the opponent has it.
Some examples is if the Mage has a Giant it WILL be played on Turn 4 generally, if the Warrior has Dr Boom it WILL come on Turn 7, if the Warlock has Rafaam it will happen on Turn 7-8, etcâŚ
Pretty much like how an Edwin on turn 3 can auto win the game himself, This would be the equivalent of someone going âAll-inâ on poker in the hope the other person folds but if the other person has a Transform or Silence then the person loses and what decides this, Unless you are running multiple silences, or transform effects this is all decided by what cards you are given, Which you have minimal control over.
I think that too many âcombosâ are too strong at the moment and can define the the outcome depending on the draw.
And this is the problem with nerfing a deck that barely makes it over a 50% win rate. then it becomes even worse and vanishes. but that doesnât solve the problem of the âstrong combosâ because nearly every strong deck relies on such a combo.
so to solve that problem you gotta get rid of all of them, something thatâs impossible do achieve via nerfs in my opinion, let alone via nerfing one deck.
Point is⌠most combos are absolutly answerable.
The Problem? A majority of players is bad at answering them.
Why do i say that? Because im one of the people who is bad at answering them.
I love playing zoo and in my rank (15 -12) im decent. Still im not a good zoo Player.
When a mage plays giant into call resulting into 2 horrors id probably concede.
Yet (i know those guys are grandmasters but stillâŚ) viper beat a cyclone mage piloted by boarcontrol (if i remember correctly) because hes aware on how many micro desicions zoo demands to play at a high lvl.
Most things are beatable but s.d. ometimes obe needs to think ahead and aroubd the corner which is a skill which is really hard to learn.
But its far more rewarding than adking for nerfs over and over again lije some people do
I was watching a show yesterday and when asked for a date, a character from that show often uses the phrase âmaybe. if you play your cards rightâ
that made me think about hearthstone. essentially this is what Toadâs getting at. if you play your cards right, most of those combos are answerable, at least to a degree.
sometimes they are not. sometimes you donât have the right cards at the right time and then thatâs it.
here comeâs the problem: I believe that often people think that there wasnât anything they could have done, when instead there was a solution, but they didnât see it.
this is the time when the âno skill requiredâ argument gets put into play. ironically, itâs a situation where a lack of skill made all the difference.
an example for this: just now I played a game with secret hunter vs mittelreichweitenjäger, sorry, midrange hunter. he consistently had stuff on the board, had me down to 7 health at the end and even BM-emoted already, but I still won because I was constantly smorcâing since turn 2. had I missed even one hero power since then, I would have lost for sure. Iâm not saying Iâm a grandmaster here of course, but say a year ago I would have thought that this game was unwinnable for me.
1 Like
This is the same point I always bring up whenever people complain about this deckâŚor any other deck for that matter. One of the biggest pieces of being a âgoodâ hearthstone player is knowing your opponent and what you can do to counter his plans. CC mage is a classic example of this. If you are up against a mage then chances are they are going to try their best to hit that big turn 5 comboâŚand as their opponent you should KNOW this. That means mulliganing for cards that you know can deal with that turn 4 giant should the worst case scenario happen. Remember, mage CANâT pull off that combo before turn 5 (except in ridiculously niche situations where they have to expend a lot of cards early), and will have to play the giant on turn 4 to do so. That gives you 4 turns to try and set yourself to deal with that giant if it comes down. If that means sacrificing a few early game minions, better that than put yourself onto an almost guaranteed loser. If it doesnât come down, chances are youâve got the board and can build strongly from there. More likely though, your strong board will force them to play cards, the more cards you force them to play, the harder it is for them to get that mountain giant out.
Not just in Hearthstone, but in ANY sport/game where you are against an opponent, half the battle is knowing them, what they will do and how you can answer it.
As Khisana stated above, yes itâs a high roll combo that can win you the game if you pull it off, but you have to look at the fact that itâs win rate is barely 49%âŚitâs high risk/high reward, but itâs obvious from itâs winrate that is suffers more from the risk than it reaps from the rewardâŚthatâs why it hasnât been nerfed and probably never will be unless something changes to make it stronger
1 Like
I know Iâm always bringing this up but this is Beatdown Theory 101.
If you are playing against a combo deck, you are the beatdown, even if you are playing a control deck. Thatâs what it means to âknow how to answerâ. Yesterday I played a great game with a friend. He was playing a Control Warlock kind of thing, I was playing Jade Rogue. As soon as I put down the first Jade card, he went face all the way, no trades, no considerations for his health, nothing. He won the game by silencing a doomsayer I put on board and saying âhave to kill you while you have little green manâ. GG and WP to him.
Some decks are âtrue bad matchupsâ. If you canât be beatdown and you canât be control, then itâs a bad matchup. Weâve seen this, those are the problematic decks.
1 Like
If i could id would like it twice for the mittelreichweitenjäger ![:smiley:](https://d30yn6ctwpaot1.cloudfront.net/en/hearthstone/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
I love these when they happen. In the words of Han SoloâŚâDonât get cockyâ 
One of the biggest pieces of being a âgoodâ hearthstone player is knowing your opponent and what you can do to counter his plans.
And what about if you know your opponents deck like i can tell a Shirvallah Paladin a mile away or a Nomi priest /rogue or a Control Warrior but then have the answers in your deck but do not get them.
Like atm Im playing Shaman I have 2 Hagatha Scheme and my opponent playing Nomi Priest and expends his deck before I draw my Schemes or I draw them 2 turns before the Nomi comes down so my schemes only do 3 dmg.
This is an example of what I am talking about it,s good to know what your opponent is playing but even if you âtechâ into a counter for it theres no guarantee that you will get it in time.
Remember, mage CANâT pull off that combo before turn 5 (except in ridiculously niche situations where they have to expend a lot of cards early), and will have to play the giant on turn 4 to do so.
and whats the guarantee that you will have all your low cost minions to establish a board that will be strong enough to deal with an 8/8 on turn 4 if you do not have a hard removal at the ready ??
Unless your deck is at least 50% 1-2 mana cost cards there is no guarantee about establishing a board before turn 4.
Itâs a card game. It has a draw mechanic. If it didnât it would be a completely different game. You play with what you have and the same is true for your opponent. You say this as if your opponent has what he needs and you donât. Iâm sure other players will have the same complaint about you drawing Hagathaâs Schemes too soon.
Do you mulligan for that card in that matchup?
Is there an alternative or tech that you could add to that matchup?
Well, to be honest, youâve answered your own question right hereâŚâŚ.
The same thing goes both ways, there is no guarantee your opponent is going to get the draw they need to drop that 8/8 giant on turn 4 and then use CC on turn 5. You are both relying on a bit of luckâŚthe difference is, if that mage is pulling for that giant they leave themselves wide open to you building a strong board in the mean time. Thatâs the biggest drawback of that mage deckâŚthey NEED to draw that giant and/or the conjurers calling and very often leave themselves open by trying to get it. Thatâs why itâs so inconsistent because itâs about a 20% chance they will get that combo by turn 5, if they donât they get ripped apart most of the time.
Itâs not that I donât understand that itâs a very strong combo when it comes offâŚbut its IF it comes offâŚand itâs a big IF. You beat that deck by preparing for the worst case scenario and stopping it at itâs source or taking FULL advantage when it doesnât come offâŚbut you wonât beat it every time because RNG comes into playâŚjust like it comes into play for everyone else.
It sucks when youâre playing against the likes of a nomi priest and you donât draw your answer in timeâŚbut it happens to everyone, if it didnât the game would be a hell of a lot different and probably boring as hell. Iâve lost games when I got unlucky and not drawn what I needed, and smashed opponents when Iâve had a bit of luck and got my answers. Itâs all swings and roundabouts.
Another thing Iâve learned in all my years playing this game is that the vast majority of people only remember the bad things that happen to them. A friend of mine was, last year, complaining about this ridiculous combo heâd come across that had smashed him. Fortunately he used Decktracker so we looked back at that game, and his play history, turns out heâd beaten that deck several times without realising because theyâd never pulled off the combo, but the one time it came off he went crazy about how strong it wasâŚcase in point right there. That mage deck is similar in that sense because you remember the times when it does come off because its really strong when it does, but you donât see all the times it gets hammered because its so hit and miss
Nothing is wrong with Conjurerâs Calling. I love playing Mage but have to play Token Druid , Murloc Shaman or Warlock Zoo on ladder rank 10 -15. If you have problems against Mage you could try one of these. Mage would be the last class I would nerf.
@Rayven
So what you are saying is that Hearthstone MUST have a luck element involved.
This would mean that other âStrategyâ games must have a luck element involved, So let me ask you that is Chess a boring game.
The same thing goes both ways, there is no guarantee your opponent is going to get the draw they need to drop that 8/8 giant on turn 4 and then use CC on turn 5. You are both relying on a bit of luck
So by this same token this âluckâ can decide the outcome of the game, If the mage gets the Giant and you do not get an answer is the game not decided pretty much there and then ?
Itâs not that I donât understand that itâs a very strong combo when it comes offâŚbut its IF it comes offâŚand itâs a big IF.
By the same pretense that IF i win the lottery then i got lucky but if I do not then I did not get lucky.
It sucks when youâre playing against the likes of a nomi priest and you donât draw your answer in timeâŚbut it happens to everyone,
This sentence here sums up a lot of HS games because IF you do not draw your answers which can happen to everyone but is not your decision but the decision of RNG, The same way if you are holding a 10 and a 2 in Blackjack then getting another card which is a 10 and going Bust (Yes you can look at the percentages of the likelihood of drawing a 10 and then trying to play the odds, but regardless of the âoddsâ what TRULY decides this?).
I would like to know the actual win rates of decks and the actual games that were decided based upon the fact that your opponent had no answers at the time?
Because losing because of bad plays is one thing but losing because you had nothing to play is another reason, Which is why I consider Winrates to be skewed data.
Drib, Iâm sorry if you already answered this and I missed it: Iâd like a little clarification on what your exact issue is. that conjurerâs calling mage is too strong or that it is too polarized (very good if the combo happens, very bad if not)?
My issue is that HS is considered a Strategy game and that too many games can be won by Outrageous combos if the cards are given.
This example of Conjurers is a prime example of where a player can win simply not by skill but by having the cards given to them and winning with basically no skill and no pro player will be able to compete because of bad RNG.
My definition of Strategy is games like Civilization, Sim City, Theme Park, Command and Conquer games where the RNG is left to very minimal decisions, Not where RNG can actually win the game outright.
All card games with a draw mechanic involve some luck. Poker, collectible card games like MtG and HS. Even Cards Against Humanity and Exploding Kittens involve luck. That is part of the variance and is a core mechanic of what makes these games interesting. What distinguishes a good player that evolves and increases his skill is to know what to do with the hand he has and the opponent heâs facing. Complaining about randomness accomplishes nothing.
Complaining about randomness in card games with a draw mechanic by comparison to chess because thereâs no randomness in chess, is like complaining about desserts being sweet when compared to spicy food, or complaining that wine is too alcoholic when compared with water. I could go on forever with these comparisons. I personally only think that chess is boring because, unlike Ladders and Snakes, it doesnât use a dice.
I guess my main concern is how the RNG can affect the game itself to be honest not that it exists but the fact that how the RNG can swing a losing game into a winning game.
Maybe I consider too many combos too powerful for the number of cards that are required for many small outrageous value.
ok, so CC is not the problem, but just an example. then youâd have to have all of those combos nerfed. kicking CC to the curb wouldnât do anything because it would just be replaced by another âbrokenâ combo.
one thing I find interesting here and I really am not trying to be cute: who considers HS a strategy game? Iâm not saying it is or isnât, but I have never heard such a classification.
nevertheless, the âstrategy gameâ and the comparisons with poker, blackjack, chess and whatnot omit an important detail in my opinion: âstrategy (skill-based)â and âluck-basedâ are archetypes, they arenât exclusive categories.
a skill-based game can involve luck elements and vice versa. so two skill-based games can differ in the degree that they involve luck. so hearthstone can still be a skill-based game, but with a higher luck factor than another skill-based game, like Chess or Civilization.
I tend to agree with this one. at some point I accepted that the huge WOW-effect moments are what the devs strive for, even if I donât like them. and if one can accept that HS isnât chess with cards, it can be a pretty fun and challenging game. (for example I honestly believe that the reason why I couldnât reach rank 15 2 years ago and do reach rank 5 now and canât reach legend now is skill.)
Sheathe your sword, draw your deck, and get ready for Hearthstone - the fast-paced strategy card game thatâs easy to learn and massively fun. Start a free game and play your cards to sling spells, summon creatures, and command the heroes of Warcraft in duels of epic strategy.
From Blizzard themselves.
1 Like
thanks. I could have found that myself I guess, so thanks for doing the leg work for me ![:wink:](https://d30yn6ctwpaot1.cloudfront.net/en/hearthstone/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
anyway, just in case you donât reread posts or whatever, I edited my previous post with a reply to your post.