Unpopular opinion: Printing Zephrys was a mistake

When Zephrys got announced, people were insanely excited about it. Getting the perfect card to solve any situation, that card is nuts! And it is nuts. Getting a board clear, huge minion, removal, etc. is genuinely nuts. But is that necessarily a good thing?

You see, there are a few cards that are so nuts, that they become too good not to run. For instance, Leeroy Jenkins - a very powerful finisher that makes it’s way into any Aggro deck that isn’t entirely focused on minions. Zilliax - it’s versatility and overall power is unmatched, you’d be a fool not to run it! Archivist Elysiana - if you’re a Control deck that doesn’t have a late-game finisher/fatigue plan, just stick this in and you’ll be fine!

And it’s not just neutral legendaries - Azure Drake, Ice Block, Ultimate Infestation, Spreading Plague, all of these were a serious problem because of their sheer power. If you didn’t want to run these cards in your deck, you needed a very good reason for it.

So why is this a problem?

All of these cards created lots of problem in terms of Card Design, Deckbuilding and Dust Management. Card Designers had to come up with new cards, that either diminish the problem (Golakka Crawler, Skulking Geist, etc.), or are just straight-up better than the problematic cards. Option 1 is much better long-term, but it’s much more difficult to design and balance in a very delicate way, weak enough that the problematic deck isn’t completely invalidated and still remains playable despite an existing counter, but not strong enough to become a problem of its own.

Deckbuilders also suffer from this. They could build that Ramp Druid they really wanted, but they need to add cards like Ultimate Infestation or Spreading Plague, otherwise their entire deck just becomes a joke. They could build that Control Warrior they liked, but they’d have to sacrifice a deckslot to fit in cards like Baleful Banker/Young Brewmaster to even have a chance in mirror matchups. Because of these cards, players have less room to experiment with and decks have less “flex spots” overall.

Players in general suffer from this as well. If they want to have a viable deck, they need to craft those cards in order for the deck to be competitively viable, and that dust cost can add up very quickly, especially if you don’t have a large amount of resources to begin with. Sometimes players can just switch cards around to save dust, but these powerful cards are often far too important to miss out on them, and there are often no other options available, so what do you do then?

So how does Zephrys fit into all of this?

Now let’s finally take a look at the genie himself. Zephrys’ effect is immensely powerful and has synergy with the archetype comparable to cards like Kazakus or Raza the Chained. You could open a pack, get, say, Reno for instance, and think to yourself “Wow, this card is so cool! I’m going to build a deck around it!”, but suddenly Zephrys pulls you aside and asks you “Now hold on a minute, if you want that deck to be any good you’re gonna need to cough up 1600 dust. What, you can’t afford that? Then BEGONE, I banish thee and thy deck into the empty void of obscurity!”.

If you want to have a good highlander deck, you need that 1600 dust in order to even be competitive. If you have that 1600 dust, you now have 1 deckslot less to experiment with. If you don’t, your deck is garbage. Zephrys may be an impressive card, both in terms of coding as well as power level, but we only need to look behind that fake smile and those glowing orbs of power to see a growing problem. People might not see it right now, but eventually it’ll grow enough to get their attention, which might be too late.

EDIT: I know I’ll be getting tons of hate for this, but I’m hoping this’ll become more and more apparent as time goes on and all of the hype fades away.

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A part of me agrees with this. I also see the issue with depending on Zephrys to give you that one card that you need everytime. But ultimately, I think the pros outweigh the cons of Zephrys.

That’s mostly because the hype is still present and people are still experimenting. When the meta settles, people will start to see it. Zephrys’ problem isn’t a mechanical one, it’s the fact that it exists in the first place.

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this card basically deletes a dimension of the game, you usually use your generally worst cards to get something out of them then when you’re out of answers you got this perfect answer

I’ve had so many games already “I know he has the Zephrys” or “If he has the Zephyrs” “it’s gonna give him frost nova this time” “it’s gonna give him deadly shot this time” “he’s gonna get truesilver for lethal, what do I do?” I’m already bored…and sick of the “let’s see what we get” people on twitch, you already know what you are getting

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I genuinely don’t get your point.

It seems to be that if you want a full netdeck, you need to have those 30 specific cards.

No matter what archetype you feel like playing, there will be the best cards to play and to play the best cards, you have to own those cards.

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his point is that if you want a control warrior, for example, you have to run 3 specific legendary cards or else you’re never going to beat any control warrior, we should be given more options with every card printed, not restrained to the new ones

Okay, this is a lot to take in and think about.

I can see where you’re coming from. And I can agree to a degree. Genn and Baku were ‘mistakes’ in a way. Hence why they had to be rotated a year earlier.

But at the same time if you want to make a Highlander/Singleton deck to work, there’s gotta be something to justify the big deck building restriction. And Zephrys offers exactly that. But I don’t think the other classes besides Hunter, Paladin, Mage and Druid will run it due to the lack of their own class Highlander cards.

Now, you could argue that Genn and Baku also restricted the way your deck was built and yet they still became problems and you would be correct. But the big difference here is that you can’t really build your deck around Zephrys, other than run only one copy of each card to make him work in the first place. The only way to abuse Zephrys is to try to bounce him back to your hand with something like Youthful Brewmaster or Barista Lynchen for example. But since you can run only one copy of each card that can be difficult. The point is; you can’t build your deck to support Zephrys like you could build your deck to abuse the upgraded/discounted hero powers.

Also Zephrys does not always give you the perfect card. I once saw Thjis playing Zephrys, hoping he would give him Mass Dispel to Silence all the enemy minions with powerful Deathrattles, Taunts, Lifesteals or whatever they had. He didn’t get it. Even though it would’ve been the perfect card for the situation, so Zephrys is not perfect.

As for players having to invest more to the game, be it with time, dust and/or money, to get better cards to stay competitive; well, every single competitive collectible card game is like this and Hearthstone is no different. Some decks will always be better than others in certain metas and certain core cards are needed to make them work. You can’t realistically stay competitive with literally anything. At least at high ranks, let alone tournaments.

I also get the impression that you’re basically saying; “We can’t have too versatile legendaries. Like Zilliax who is a safe craft since almost every deck uses him and thus brings a lot value for that dust. But we also can’t have too niche or deck type specific ones like Leeroy Jenkins who is mostly used as a finished in Aggro decks.”

Eeer, why? What KIND of legendaries can we have then? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

edit this to say in every way

1 Like

I think we’ll see a lot of highlander decks in Standard for the first week, but they probably won’t become T1. I can see Paladin stay, but they will need to highroll Finley early. The other decks probably can’t get consistent enough to warrant a spot in the meta. Zephrys by himself is (imo) not enough to get the wins as highlander.

Wild is another story: highlander decks have a lot more cards to choose from, so consistency is less of an issue. There’s also good old Reno, giving highlanders a survivability boost (if you draw him in time). Zephrys sounds like an auto-include for highlanders there. I just don’t know how big his impact will be though. Maybe it will be just enough. After all, even Wild highlanders needed some boost.

I disagree that Zephrys is a mistake card. You have to bear in mind that building a Highlander deck restricts you in a LOT of ways. Because of having no duplicates in your deck, this means you’re even less likely to have the cards to hand that you would otherwise need in any given situation, and card draw RNG is already unpredictable enough, I should know, mines been god awful all day while my opponents have been top decking EVERYTHING :joy:

All this card really does is bridge that gap by giving you one opportunity to get that ‘perfect’ card you need at the time…but it isn’t even THAT wonderful. I’ve had situations at turn 10+ where I desperately needed a Twisting Nether and I got Blizzard, Frost Nova and a taunt minion as my options. It’s useful, but it’s hardly broken

I bet Highlander Hunter is going to stick around too. The class got many cards that are very solid and good on their own without much synergy required. That’s what you really need for a successful Singleton deck.

And you can run a Secret package along with Subject 9. Even two Hyena Alphas, which Trump did with good success. It’s not too hard to get at least one of the two in hand before turn 7. About 70% chance to draw one according to his own math. And, well, 7 mana King Krush and an extra 2/4 body is pretty nice. Very comparable to Leeroy that deals two more damage for one extra mana. :stuck_out_tongue:

He gets tweaks on tuesday

Hes a really complex card so no wonder it needs time to get him perfect

Also that with only the opponent gets the benefit is wrong and Doesnt make sense.

If that only works for the opponent so it would ve erong and bad ALL THE TIME

Its the same Argument when somebody says all people only que into their counters.

That is simply not possible. At least 50% have to que into their best matchup then
Edit: wrong thread Sry

I guess I’m the opponent now. Zephrys has always delivered proper answers for me. Might also be because I took the few minutes to learn how Zephrys does or doesn’t work.

So your complaint suddenly changed from “it only works for my opponent” to “people draw it in the first turns all the time”, which has nothing to do with Zephrys in particular…

Well, it’s designed to give perfect answers if you play it right. So it would do the same for you if you play it on the correct moment.

It would certainly help… Seriously though, it’s not hard to read how Zephrys works.

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why bother?

i mean you dont like the game,

you dont trust the game

and you think there is a reason to do better with your time… so why dont you just do better with your time?

dont get me wrong you can do what ever you like ofc. but i just dont see the point.

Im a big supporter of people dont do things they dont enjoy so why are you here and complaining about a card, a game, and an “authority” you dont like, enjoy or trust at all?

like you said yourself. go on and do better with your life

cheers

Ofcourse there are. Nobody said otherwise. Zephrys’s A.I. isnt perfect. Then again, i fail to understand your argument, a.k.a. how come and all this is somehow connected to Hearthstone’s ‘manipulative’ nature.

Zephrys is an expensive and powerful card, most players will spend either real money or their hard-earned Dust to craft him. Noone can deny that.

Now, lets assume Zephrys’s imperfect behavior is indeed intentional. Wouldn’t this work against Blizzard’s purposes? At the end of the day, Blizzard is a multi million dollar company and they wanna make money. ‘Baiting’ players into spending money on expensive, faulty products (in this case Zephrys) would only lead to frustration, dissapointment and quiting.

Therefore we can safely conclude, Zephrys isnt giving you the wrong cards on purpose. This can be confirmed through the dozen bug fixes Zephrys has received.

There are indeed situations that Zephrys doesn’t handle properly, even when played optimally. They are slowly being patched out (Doomsayer, 0-attack weapons,…) Considering the nature of Zephrys, there will probably remain some specific board states or cards he’ll have issues with.

I neither told you to read the card text nor to trust my word on it. The information on how he works is freely available on several sites. In the actual gameplay this information has been proven correct so far, apart from the aforementioned outliers.

Nobody is forcing either of us to have this conversation though… You are correct that it is hard to prove or disprove match manipulation without the code. Still, as has been pointed out many times before in other threads, it’s very improbable that such manipulation has not yet been proven.

The better he is the worse he is, if there were 0 flaws then you would be required 0 thinking to use it

i can wholehearthly garantue you that sometimes the best way to solve your own problems is to help somebody else

i m not making fun here but i actually talk about real life experience from myself

it opens the mind in a unique kind of way.

well another way for you to get rid of the game is a rather radical one.

not making fun her either

Dust your whole Collection. after that craft stuff again and then durst it again until you dont have enough to make a decent card yet alone a deck.

its rather hardcore but if cant play it properly you will loose intererst in it

its rather radical but maybe it may help