What I've learned from Legend

General Discussion
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Alright everyone, so I’ve been playing Hearthstone for a couple of years now and I reached Legend for the first time about a year ago. Since then I have been keeping it casual most of the time, but have nevertheless reached Legend 5 more times in Standard and 3 times in Wild. I know that is not as much as the pros, but I feel my observations might still be useful to some of you, so here goes!

1. Players misplay more often than they think.
Many misplays are not very obvious, especially in higher ranks. Just because you’ve played on curve and have not made big mistakes, doesn’t mean you have played correctly. Most often the mistake is subtle: like picking the wrong card from a choice of 3, curving out with the wrong cards, placing 1 more minion than necessary on the board etc. The key to fixing this is not only watching pros play, but watching your own replays (with Deck Tracker for example). When viewing some of my own replays, I often notice misplays, which I did not see during the game, even though I won.

2. You do not need a Tier 1 deck to hit Legend.
Most of the times I got Legend, I did it with Tier 2 decks just because I did not enjoy playing the Tier 1 decks or did not have the cards for them. Some people even get it with Tier 4 decks.

3. Buying packs will also not get you Legend.
Of course it helps to have a Tier 1 deck, but don’t be surprised if you craft it and still can’t get Legend. Buying packs to craft a netdeck is fine in my opinion, but keep in mind that piloting the deck to Legend is not guaranteed.

4. Reaching Legend (from R5) does not take a long time.
Getting Legend takes me 8 to 16 hours, with an average game length of 6 minutes (current season). If you’re playing a slower deck and are unlucky, it can take a bit longer. If it takes too long, then you are most likely not ready.

5. Tilt exists, but it is not always to blame.
If you feel yourself getting tilted, you should step away from the game. However, losing 5 games in a row due is not necessarily because of tilt. It could simply be bad RNG. Just take a short break and keep at it. Try to be honest when identifying whether your losses are due to tilt, misplays or RNG - it will help you in the long run.

6. Losing streaks don’t go away, even when you get good at the game.
Unfortunately, losing streaks are part of the TCG world. Even when get to Legend, you may still lose 5 or even 10 games in a row.

7. If you are Rank 5, reaching Legend is not just a “matter of time”.
When I was consistently getting to rank 5 I would sometimes get lucky winning streaks into rank 3 and even 2. Then I would fall back to R5 and make excuses for myself like: “Yeah, grinding Legend just takes a lot of time. I am not going to grind like some tryhard. I could do it, if I wanted to”. The truth was I was simply making too many misplays. Just because you got carried by a lucky winstreak, does not mean you can consistently get Legend.

8. Does “the Algorithm” exist?
Many times during gross losing streaks I would get salty and think about this. However, it does not matter. You either enjoy the game as it is, or don’t. Whether “the Algorithm” exists has absolutely no meaning for your Legend climb.

9. Deck trackers are very useful, but are not a requirement.
You can reach Legend without them. Use them only if you truly need them to plan your next few turns, assess your decks or make decisions. If you only use them to be salty about the “80% chance you had to topdeck lethal”, then you are using them wrong and you are better off without them.

10. Pick a deck and stick with it.
If you have never played a deck archetype or a class before, don’t switch to it because you lost a few games. It is better to just tech against a particular threat, if you have to, and keep playing a deck you are confident with. Switching to a deck you don’t know how to play will only cause you to lose more games.

11. Don’t force it.
If you fixate on the idea of getting Legend you will simply get frustrated and angry. Don’t force yourself to watch guides and replays - do it whenever you feel like it. Just play the game and if you are ready, it will happen by itself.

12. You don’t need Legend to prove you are a good player.
Most players above rank 20 are relatively good at the game, so don’t worry even if you are stuck at 20 or 15 or 5. Just play for fun!

And that is it, everyone. If you have anything to add, feel free to do so. If not, then thank you for reading. I hope I have been helpful!

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Thank you for sharing your experience, mate. This is a fantastic piece of information. I would just add that as someone that doesn’t care about ranked or getting Legend, most of what you wrote also applies.

Again, thank you for sharing, this was a great read.

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You are quite welcome! I’m glad the post was helpful and interesting for you!

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For me as well.

Thx for sharing

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Very good post !
Would give a +5 but can’t sorry :smile:

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+1 is perfectly sufficient, mate, thank you!

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I like your post very much and I find it valuable because it gives very useful information in a very condensed fashion. I do have a point of critique though that is very (this) forum-specific and thus not your fault at all:

I think that reception of your post will be too polarized.

I think on one hand you have those people that are very receptive to it. They like your post and try to incorporate its content into their game. But I think they’re familiar with most of your points already (albeit subconsciously), so “all” it did was reinforce their beliefs.

On the other you have those, who are not receptive to it at all because it contradicts their view onto the game, which can loosely be summarized as “it’s the game’s fault that I don’t achieve what I want to achieve”. They’ll ignore your post or worse: berate you and call you names.

That’s my theory at least. The point of this post here is to try to spark a discussion about how posts like yours could be written so that they reach the ‘sceptical audience’ as well (or parts of it at least).

In other words: how can we cast doubt on the ‘blame the game’ attitude?

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Tl;dr at the bottom.

Thank you very much for your feedback, khisana! You do raise valid points for discussion in a respectable fashion, which I appreciate!

I’ve been playing for a long time, but I am still new to the forums, so I was not aware of the user base’s polarization you mention. Now that you say it, it does make sense. I guess someone could misconstrue my advice as humblebrag or simply feel like their disagreement with my post is a personal insult to their skill or intelligence. I suppose it does not really matter to me. Internet forums in general are not known to be the nicest of places, so the occasional muppet spewing insults is to be expected. As long as my post helps at least a few people improve their game, I can live with it.

Regarding your point about my post simply reinforcing the receptive readers’ knowledge, I do agree that it is possible. On the other hand, even if they took away only 1 out of the 12 points, which they hadn’t thought about before, then I have helped at least a little bit. What is more, a little positive reinforcement might be good sometimes. For example, reading that even Legend players get losing streaks might make you feel better about yourself and not think you are somehow inferior for losing a lot of games in a row.

When it comes to the possible ways of presenting posts such as mine, so that they at least partly reach the sceptical audience, a couple of things come to mind:
1. Presenting the advice, backed up by actual data and not just anecdotal evidence is the first way. Reasonable sceptics may deny advice, but probably won’t deny numbers. The thing is, I don’t have such data and I can only offer anecdotal evidence of my claims. The only way I can back it up is by saying how many times I’ve got Legend, to reaffirm that what I say is not the advice of someone who facerolled to Legend once by pure chance and now wants to lowkey brag about it.
2. Another option would be putting a disclaimer at the beginning of my post, that it only represents my personal opinion and it is in no way supposed to be an official guide. I thought I had reaffirmed this by refraining from using the word “guide” and structuring my post in a short informal manner. I believe a clear disclaimer might limit the discontent amongst sceptics.
3. A third way to reach the sceptics would be to frame my post as a discussion rather than observations or advice. This way people may feel inclined to share their opinions and feel like they are part of the discussion instead of being insulted.

By doing these things, reasonable sceptics might at least give some thought to what I am saying, rather than going straight into defense mode. Unfortunately, unreasonable sceptics and angry trolls will always be around, so no matter what we do, we cannot appease them.

Hearthstone has its shortcomings, I don’t deny it. It does make me angry and salty sometimes too. But if someone has such a deep rooted “blame the game” attitude, that they feel the need to insult me, instead of thinking about what I have said and engaging in a discussion, then I cannot change their mind, regardless of what I do.

In any case, I hope I have touched on all of your points, khisana! If you have anything to add, feel free to do so! If not, thank you for reading and have a great evening!

Tl;dr: You raise valid points. I see how my post might be misinterpreted and make readers angry. As long as it helps a few people, I am ok with that. Even if they already know what I said, positive reinforcement is sometimes good. Reasonable sceptics can be convinced by offering factual data, putting a disclaimer or presenting the post as a discussion, not observations or advice. There is no way to reach unreasonable sceptics and trolls, so they are not the target audience of such posts.

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I need to clarify my post: I didn’t intend to criticize your post as ineffective or something like that. My criticism went towards the audience because I suspect that your post is only received by people that are aware of say 9-12 of your 12 points. For them it’s a good read, but nothing earth shaking.

And those that are aware of say 0-8 of your points, which are those that could benefit greatly from it (up until the point of shaking the earth), are on average unlikely to receive it (I think).

And that just sucks.

So I was aiming for a collective reflection upon the question ‘how can we make a person that ignores ‘uncomfortable’ arguments/evidence doubt his conviction?’ or in other words ‘how to get through to someone who doesn’t want to listen?’

I know that in this extreme, this is an impossible goal. but this is more of a ‘you gotta shoot for the impossible to achieve the possible’ - approach.

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I apologize, if I have misunderstood the point of your post!

For those people I am happy, even if they learn 1 new thing or if they simply have a good read.

You are right and that sucks.

That was the question I tried to answer in the second half of my post. We can either provide them factual data (numbers and statistics) or include them in the debate. This way we can help them understand through discourse. For example, my post should not be made in the format of “12 things I learned from Legend” but should be more like: “Do you guys agree with these 12 things? Let’s have discussion!” Even if we disagree in the end, they will at least think about what we are saying during the discussion, instead of ignoring the post.

On the other hand, if they do not wish to accept numbers or do not wish to engage in civilized discourse, then they are completely unreasonable and are not worth our time.

I hope I was on point with my answer this time. Cheers!

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We can’t change someone else’s mind. We can only change our own and expect other people change theirs. Human beings have a strong confirmation bias. We tend to ignore or reject what contradicts our world view and give too much importance to what confirms it. Everyone thinks “I’m open to new ideas” but in fact this is a skill that is learned and enhanced. We simply don’t do it by default.

This said, if we can’t change someone’s mind, what can we do? We’ve discussed it actually. Here: Some pointers about discussions

The problem is not if they are willing or not but rather that most people don’t know how to have a civilised discussion. They just don’t know any better. The vast majority of people have no idea what is the burden of proof or even if their arguments are valid or not. It’s an educational issue that is irrelevant for the current discussion and it happens everywhere, not only here.

On a final note: the vast majority of the forum regulars either know how to discuss or at least are able to engage respectfully. You certainly seem to fit right in. Hope to see you around often. :slight_smile:

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That’s neither what I meant nor what I said. I don’t want to change anyone’s mind. I would like to do something against a mindset that disregards all uncomfortable information, not because they deem its source unreliable, but because it simply challenges what makes them feel comfortable. I’m content once they’ve come to acknowledge that the world isn’t black and white. What they choose to do with that knowledge, I don’t care.

On a sidenote: I’m not against people being comfortable. But I regard cherrypicking arguments as essentially the same thing as sweets. Makes you feel good, but if that’s all you’re eating, you’re not gonna be healthy.

further sidenote: My goal with all of this here wasn’t to directly influence certain people, neither here, nor anywhere else. I wanted to spark a discussion about ways to express stuff like OP did, but in a way that would be much easier digestible for certain people. Not in order to force them into something they don’t want, but to make it easier for them to widen their horizon a bit.

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most people are doing its take from website deck build like warrior bomb or mech hunter to become rank legend for me im create my owner deck for fun

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This was pretty nice, quite a satisfying read.

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Great description…Congrt.

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Thank you for the link, Vlad, it was an interesting read! On a side note:

That is why I generally do not engage in discussions with most people, be it on the Internet or IRL. Not because of a superiority complex, but because most of the time discussions end with the other party getting offended or resorting to personal insults. I only do it, if the other party is open to discussion or if their opinions affect me personally.

Anyway, that is beside the point of my original post. I’ll see you around the forums, mate! :slight_smile:

To khisana:

As I said in my previous reply, maybe if we structure the posts in a more inclusive way, then maybe they will be easier to digest. Instead of outright telling people to “do this, if they want to be Legend” or giving them numbers like “80% of players use a deck tracker”, we should try to involve them in the discussion. For example, my post could be phrased like this: “Do you guys agree with these 12 things?”. This way people will be more inclined to think about what I said and then reply, instead of just ignoring the post. If they are reasonable, a discussion will ensue and we can all widen our horizons.

In any case, I’ll see you around the forums khisana and thank you for your contribution to this thread!

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I run a blog about philosophy and science. Engaging in difficult discussions IRL is extremely frequent. The vast majority of those are civilized though. When they are not, I disengage unless I’m passing info on to others spectating. I do get the “you just want to feel superior often”. It’s a wrong assumption and an ad hominem, but there’s nothing I can do to avoid it.

This works. Phrasing it as a question means you are not claiming anything and that you are open to further discuss it. Using (a twisted form of) Socratic method by engaging with questions sometimes works too IRL, not great online.

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Brilliantly written and well worded post and something that applies to everyone playing the game, not just those trying to hit legend. Wise words that lots of people should be able to take something valuable from.

I especially liked points 5-8 and these are points a LOT of players could do with taking to heart. In my experience on this forum, and this is just purely my opinion, a lot of the ‘hate posts’ that appear on here come from peoples frustration at losing streaks/inability to correctly deal with certain mechanics. I think a lot more players could benefit from taking these particular points to heart and taking a step back from the game, analysing what and where they are going wrong and, instead of blaming ‘broken decks and mechanics’ looking at where THEY can improve and better deal with certain situations. Took me a long time to get fairly decent at doing this and it changed my gameplay massively.

Keep up the good work buddy

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Great post, enjoyed it, have a like <3

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Thank you very much, Rayven! I appreciate the kind words! I can only hope that my post is as positively received by most people, as it was by you.

P.S. To Azra: Thanks, mate, have a reply! <3

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