Why people hate Blackheart's Bay and Haunted Mines


#1

I know I am the minority here, but I always enjoy those two. I don’t understand why people hate it. Is it the uncertainty where people can sneak in and gather objectives? Or is it because specialists excel in these maps? Blizzard even go so far and took Haunted minds away (still playable on custom). And with the slower cadence Hots is having, not sure if we are going to see Haunted Mines anytime soon.


#2

BhB is PvE map where you never have to TF which makes it a snoozefest. HM was map where you just pushed lane and occasionally got mercs always ignoring the objective. Makes you wonder if they just put the mines part as noob trap to show how little understanding some people have of the game and balance.


#3

BHB is extremely snowbally for me. One payment takes down a fort and towers. Get first 2 objectives and you are 80% going to win. Of course getting back is as hard as it gets when chests spawn randomly and even if you contest, one death and you lost all coins. The map could be ok if it that ship dealt 3 times less dmg and dying didnt give ALL coins to enemy.


#4

BHB requires a mobile bruiser to merc all game while your team protects you and take the rest of the camps/ocasionaly waveclearing.

Most people like to brawl and they don’t take camps and so they lose and hate the map.


#5

I agree, esp. since they left the random nuke map in rotation (there is a map i want to be re-worked entirely or even completely removed from the roster).

Isn’t that also true for the current Braxis map or Alterac pass? All four maps benefit teams that focus on lane pushing and XP, getting the objective only once in the late game to “finish the deal”. Its not very difficult and gets easier with any type of hero that can safely interrupt channels. Try it and you’ll see how much time is wasted by the team that tries to get objectives on any of these maps.

Only if you hang around the Turn-in point. Try destroying structures while the other team turns in and you only need 2 turn ins in the late game without ever doing a team fight. The first 2 turn-ins do not mean anything, as you can easily do the same damage in the mean time. If you also steal camps while doing so, you end up with a structure and XP advantage at lvls 10-16.

The question is: Can you do something about these strategies? And the answer is a clear yes. You can either out-macro them or pick a dive-heavy team to gank/trap them constantly. All four maps are very predictable in terms of rotations (in opposition to lets say “spider queen” or “towers of doom”).


#6

No? Those maps revolve completely around TF. Braxis is 4 vs 4 TF majority of map and the reason solo lane is so critical on this map is it allows you to capture the objectives. On Alterac the objective pushes so hard that everybody always has to come contest it, leaving somebody to push instead of TF results in auto-loss because enemy will wipe your team and 3 forts minimum when your team gets maybe 1 fort if they try to push. Just watch some high level streams and you’ll see how the maps are played right.
On BhB you never have to TF or rather you never should TF. If enemy pays or guards turn in just get mercs or push. You can always easily avoid enemy team because objective, mercs or pushing are available in the other side of the map from the enemy team.


#7

Its one of the most common mistakes on braxis to push for the objective. Even at 30% the objective is usually enough to get some value out of it, while loosing a team fight in the late game usually results in a boss for the enemy team and they can just go straight to the core. Just delay, delay and delay, while rotating to capture it once in a while and pushing on the other lane. THIS is how Pros play it and rightly so.
As to Alterac: nearly the same applies. You can delay that objectives for ages, while the enemy team wastes resources and time to capture it. It is certainly stronger though than the Braxis Waves, so you want to capture it in the late game (preferably after winning a fight due to higher numbers in heroes in one spot, which is achieved, again, by macro-pressure).

I did not say you do not have to teamfight; i just said that focusing on the objectives usually looses you the game if the other team knows how to play these maps.


#8

At least partially because they strengthened the baseline of the Braxis objective compared to the 100% version. When the 0% objective was just 6 zerglings fighting for it was more important.


#9

God no, just stop. It takes 2 seconds to hand in the coins, how the fk do you take 2 towers, gate and entire fort in 2 seconds. Take camps…? are you high? How you gonna take THEIR camps when they have map control and probably the vision tower. Thats a sure way to die quickly.


#10

5 people running to the turn-in spot do not soak nor do anything else useful on the map. It takes 2 seconds to channel, not 2 seconds to get there.

And how should the other team get 2 towers, a wall and an fort? They just push a lane with 3 people, as there is nobody to confront them. As soon as they turn in, they will not only get the value from the coins, but also the value they already achieved. This usually translates in structure and level advantage.
Simply put: the more structures you destroy before turning in without dying or loosing XP, the better. There is no mechanic on the map that forces you to fight over the turn-in spots or to risk anything for that matter.
You can of course and it might make sense with certain drafts (and certainly with numbers advantages), but the point is that you do not have to in order to win the map.


#11

Or… one person hands in all the coins since you can see all 5 enemy players pushing the lanes? You dont need a PhD to come up with that strategy.

You seem to not understand the basic fact that once one team is ahead they have total map control on that map (long pathways far from safety) hence you can obviously soak all 3 lanes and with 4 and the other 1 player takes all camps. All 5 collapse and win if the camps are contested. Game won.


#12

And you do not seem to understand that even teamfights is the only chance to loose on this map (or to win for the team that lacks behind). The level of coordination you suggest (giving all the coins to one person that “sneaks” in the coins while the rest soaks), will otherwise (playing straight macro) win you 90% of the BB games anyway. But you and I know that this is not how the map is played by the majority of people.

The subject of the thread was that BB is a “bad” map, because you are not forced into teamfights (compared to volskaya for example). And I totally agree at least on the non-teamfighting aspect.

Teams loose the map because they roam aimlessly, are not able to withdraw if forced into uneven fights and most importantly: loose constantly XP while sitting in bushes or at the turn-in spot.

In short: I never saw or played a BB game where one side was forced to fight, unless so many mistakes were made by one team that the next shots would kill 2 keeps or directly the core.


#13

funniest thing is Garrosh throwing siege camp giants to enemy territory and they destroy keep if not dealt with