Ranking System if BROKEN: Stop judging player by the bad performance of the other team members

Competitive Discussion
21

literally any sport that has more than 2 players per team. W/L/D is all that matters is the vast majority of sports.
you don’t see football players saying that they should be in a higher position because their team messed up.

there are massive issues that are only present due to the dev teams decisions and you choose to focus on something that is most likely build into the game at such a fundamental level that it would require an entire rebuild of the current game?
learn to pick your battles dude. this one isn’t worth it.

literally no one is claiming it is good. we are simply stating that it is not inherently flawed.

same as above.

okay? no one claimed that the elo system was better or worse than trueskill.

I wouldn’t get your hopes up.
its possible but I’d suspect it would come down to how far along they are into the development of the multiplayer side of things. by the time Microsoft are actually in charge, they could be ready to ship it.

22

Bad example.
Players in football aren’t grouped in teams based on their solo ranking, and all solo ranking which exist for football players aren’t done via ELO system, but by their personal stats.

So all in all, you have nothing to prove your assertion to be true.

No one cares what you subjectively think about other people actions to help fix issues.
We had the same “nay sayers” like you in WoW around multiboxing discussion.
We ignored people like you, and fought for multiboxing to be banned, and we won :man_shrugging:

Well, you do, because you are using a positive assertion to prove that something designed for one task can work for something else. The problem is that you are just presenting one side of the coin, and ignoring the fact that it can also NOT work.
So all in all, your analogy doesn’t prove anything, and you still need to prove that ELO works fine, but I don’t see how you are going to do it when people already have proved that OW ranking is crap for solo players because difference in ranks of two account of same person can be as high as two full ranks. Ofc. this is expected because OW ELO system doesn’t take into account solo performance of individual player.

And you failed to prove it because your analogy was flawed.

It’s just side information, so I don’t claim that someone did.

Maybe yes, maybe no, time shows.

23

this is not entirely true. players are signed based on skill. no one is paying for bad players,

solo rankings are irrelevant to this argument.

what is my assertion exactly? im curious to see what you are not getting.

am I having a stroke? I really cant make any sense of this.

people like me? please do elaborate on what factors you are judging me on.

and I’m not wrong.

I literally told you why it doesn’t work well in this particular case.

I don’t need to prove anything dude. im not the one asking for change. if anyone needs to prove something, its you.

I failed at making a statement? I dont think you know how statements function dude.

but you did bring it up, which implies you think that it is better. all I said was that no one was denying that trueskill is a valid alternative.

24

No one argues that they aren’t.

You argued that ELO system works fine for all sports, so you were asked to prove that by giving an example, and your example was football, which is a bad example because teams in football aren’t formed based on ELO system.

False.
The whole argument is about the issue of OW using ELO system to rank individuals, ergo form solo ranking, and how bad it is at doing it.

Nah, we’re not going to play a guessing game because you are lost in your own words.

You are only correct in a sense that your analogy is partially true, but your analogy is also omitting the fact, that it also can be bad for those other tanks. So your analogy doesn’t prove that ELO system is good for OW, or even all sports, as you were claiming.

I’m confused, by your own confusing, you were arguing that ELO system is fine, now you are saying it doesn’t work… what are you even trying to say, lol ???

Since you are counteracting someone else point, then yes you need to, otherwise everything you say has no substantial value.

Trolling much?
I didn’t say anything about any “statement” so you are actually making up stuff, and counteracting that made up stuff, lol

LOL, what? XD

It doesn’t matter what I think about TrueSkill, I brought it up as a point of reference in an argument about ELO, and how bad it is at ranking individuals in OW. Just because I brought it up it doens’t mean that I am arguing about it, lol

25

ELO is better at ranking individuals

TrueSkill2 is better at matching similar skilled players together.

ELO is a better system overall, due to the number and badge based ranked ladder that they use.

TrueSkill works in Halo as it keeps lobbies of roughly similar skilled players together, but can’t lead to unwelcome sweat fests in unranked modes. A probably often seen in CoD multiplayer modes.

26

they don’t have to be. neither in football or here. you have 5 more ranks to climb through before grouping with more than 2 becomes an obstacle.

solo ranking in this game is irrelevant. its a team game based around teamplay and the end result is the better team wins. the better team is then rewarded.

I asked a question. you claimed I made an assertion, surely you can explain what that assertion is.

yet again, you seem to think I am saying the system is good. I am not. I am saying it is functional.

see now youre only confused because you tried to control the narrative. I never said the system was good.

when both parties are using anecdotal evidence, it falls upon the one asking for change to substantiate their argument.
you cant come here with an opinion and ask me for proof that you’re wrong. that’s not how things work.

you didnt have to say anything about a statement. I made a statement and you said I failed.

I really dont see how youre not getting it.

you brought up trueskill, I then said no one claimed that elo was better than true skill.

you brought it up as ‘side information’ as if it was at all relevant. the only way it would be relevant is if you thought it was the superior ranking system.

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27

That’s not the point.

It is, because ELO system is being used to rank people individually, and that’s the issue which sparked the whole argument about ELO being bad if used in such way.

It’s started from your assertion, so why you are asking me what is your assertion? lol
I’m not in no obligation to remind you what you were saying.

No, you said it’s not inherently poor, and offloaded all issue onto community.
So you not only omitted the fact that OW ranking system causes issues because ELO is bad at doing solo ranking, but even worse you blamed all issues onto the community which has nothing to do with fundamentally bad game design which causes the issues.

And I didn’t say that you were saying that system is good :man_shrugging:

I said that you were saying that system is fine, and fine and good and two different words.

I’m not asking you to prove me wrong, I’m asking you to prove that your positive assertions are true. Two different things.

What? XD Dude, just stop. You muddled this discussion to the point where you don’t even understand what you are saying, lol

LOL… for your response to make sense I would need to come up with a positive assertion which directly argues that TrueSkill is better, and I didn’t, so what you said doesn’t make any sense, lol

Well, no. It’s relevant because the argument is about ELO flaws in regard to how it works for solo ranking in group based games, so it’s logical to argue that ELO issues are big enough that another company designed a new system which fixes what ELO has issues with.

Whether I think it’s better is beside the point.

28

its not? so the work around to the flaw you claim to be fundamental isn’t relevant here?

I think you are tying too much value to the numerical value given to your skill rating. once you get into a match, that skill rating goes away. you get a team rating.

nor did I claim you were. I simply wanted to better understand what you think I am saying because its clear that there have been some misunderstandings.

yeah.

I omitted them because they aren’t true.

the game design you claim to be bad is one of the core selling points of a team based game.

okay then, let me rephrase.

the system is fine. does that mean it has no flaws? no.
is that easier for you to grasp?

let me go ahead and rephrase again.
I am not the only one making assertions. the whole thread is based around your assertion that the ranking system is fundamentally flawed.
if you aren’t going to prove yours, why am I obligated to prove mine?

I said something. you claimed I failed. what I said had no failure condition. your statement made no sense.
I literally cannot put it into simpler words than this.

you said Microsoft saw the flaws and developed trueskill in response. if that’s not a positive assertion then I don’t know what is.

see, now the fact you used the words ‘flaws’ and ‘fixes’ just states your opinion on the subject.

in a thread titled ‘Ranking System if BROKEN: Stop judging player by the bad performance of the other team members’? It most certainly is not beside the point.

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29

No it’s not. The argument is about the issue of ELO not working properly for solo ranking, and you said that ELO works for all sports, and to prove that claim you were asked to give examples of sports for which ELO works well in terms of solo ranking, and your example was football which doesn’t use ELO, so you failed to prove that what you said is true, lol

Now you keep muddling this discussion with halfassed responses where you keep paddling back and nitpick just to keep arguing because you are unable to admit that ELO doesn’t work well for solo ranking, which is the current issue with OW ranking system.

How exactly it would go away if a system programmed to do XYZ, doesn’t suddenly start doing ABC, so regardless of what you are doing in game, the system still does what it was designed to do??? XD

My responses clearly depict what I think, so stop trying to muddle the discussion even more. If you fail to understand what is going on, then I guess you are out of your depth when it comes to maintaining long discussions.

And how did you come to this conclusion since it was proven years ago that ELO doesn’t work properly for solo ranking because the difference between account of same player ranked on the same day have as much difference as 1000 SR???

Even better, that you did to prove that what you are saying is true?

LOL, no. The selling point of Multiplayer games is THE MULTIPLAYER, not underlying tech like math used for ranking system. On top of that, I didn’t say that ELO is overall bad, I said that it doesn’t work well for solo ranking, because it wasn’t designed for such task.

And yet, here you are arguing that ELO works fine for solo ranking, even tho it was proven that it doesn’t work for such task, because it wasn’t designed to do solo ranking.

On top of that, you are omitting its flaws, and dunking all issues on community, even tho community has nothing to do with crappy solo ranking due to ELO not being designed to to solo ranking.

Why would I need to prove what has been proven for the last 4-ish years, and not to mention the fact that we are being assigned solo rank despite the fact that we are being ranked according to team performance which is another proof how upside down, and broken is OW solo ranking which can throw people more than one rank away from their baseline.

It had, because you were arguing to prove that you are right about something, and your argument didn’t prove anything, so you failed to prove that what you said is valid.

It seems like it’s your basic strategy is to get into an argument, and then muddle the discussion with half sentences which omit a lot of context, so you can then pretend that something didn’t happen, lol

Which is simply a statement of a fact :man_shrugging:
In no way, it’s an attempt at arguing that TrueSkill is better.

Sorry, I don’t know what this broken sentence means.

Well, no, because the point of the argument is the issue with ELO system, and NOT whether TrueSkill is better. As always, you are going into fallacies like stawman argument, and just wasting people time.

You are clearly failing to argue your point, but instead admitting that you can’t prove your point, and moving on you are going into spam mode, and nitpicking w/e you can attack regardless of how much sense it makes.

If you what you said didn’t stick the first time, or second, then it won’t stick 10 spam pages later, so all you’re doing is wasting time because you are afraid to admit that you failed to win a battle which you picked with me :man_shrugging:

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30

alright dude. you win. I really cannot be bothered with your one-sided takes.

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31

And I can’t be bothered with your spam where you argue every word, just because you fail to understand how fallacious are your arguments :roll_eyes:

32

Why don’t you 2 resolve this in the classic toxic OW player duel.

The 1v1.

33

Agreed Jinxter that the ranking system is broken.

Many players can/do throw as they want to try out a play that they’re not most competent with, but there are other issues also whereby Blizzard allow AFK’ers, Leavers to bring down the entire team also. So much SR is lost due to a leaver in my matches.

The Blizzard team give little care for their game and the competitive scene. You can see why the game has lost so many players, even the Esports scene has dropped completely in terms of viewers.
Leavers in matches should be banned from competitive. The team that this affects, should not be effected by the loss.

34

That is a player/person issue. Not the issue of a “broken matchmaker”

You have described issues all online multiplayer games game have, but they are issues caused by the player base. Not the game.

As for your last suggestion. Leavers are banned from ranked, but it takes a couple of leaves to get there. They give allowances because it might be something as simple as a power cut and banning them would be incredibly harsh. As for the team effected by this should 100% still be losing SR if they lose. 1, they still lost. 2, stacks would just have someone tactically leave a game so they don’t lose SR from a lost game. Easy to exploit things like that.

35

its not an easy exploit if the account gets banned from competitive.
other games have no where near as many leavers as OW. Many games give the teams the ability to pause matches, and even forfeit the match to suffer a no-loss match.
OW however acknowledge it as a team loss which is not good from a competitive POV.
It is a broken MM.

36

But that would mean you’d be banning players for having a power cut, or their router dying (it has happened to us all).

There is no way to distinguish what type of leaver it is. And even if there was, someone could just pull the plug to trick it.

How is match maker responsible for someone DC’ing, or even deliberately deciding to leave. That is a ridiculous thing to blame for either a random accident or human decisions.

I will put money on the fact that leavers aren’t impacting as many games as you think, but you will have just had 1 and you’re suffering from negative reinforcement.

We would all love a great solution, but this isn’t it. Sadly this is another situation where it’s been 5+ years, if their was a glorious solution to this small problem, we’d have it.

37

Humans will be always all over the place in terms of behavior, that’s why it’s on the game developer to create a proper environment which is well curated via rules, and proper endorsements of those rules, to minimize pathological human behavior, and form healthy community.

So everything boils down to how the game is designed, what rules are being implemented, and how those rules are being enforced.

In case of Blizzard, not only the ranking system if fundamentally broken, because it tries to solo rank people using team vs team algorithm which will never work properly for solo rank, which leads to overall very bad gameplay experience, but also rules are too soft, and there is virtually no enforcement of rules beyond automated warnings/ temp bans.

Its dead simple:

  • bad game design creates bad experience, which translates into toxicity, and other pathological issues,
  • bad rules, and no proper enforcement of said rules allow for the player base to be more, and more riddled with bad actors, who only add up to the issues which bad design created in the first place,

If people knew, that they’re going to get permanently banned from Competetive for various activities which can be summed up as gameplay sabotage/game throwing, then:

  • we would get rid of a lot, maybe even most, bad actors who ruin the in-game experience,
  • people would learn to behave better,

Yup, we have AI training games, but we can’t get AI bot to replace the player who throws the game by intentionally leaving because he got smashed in first 10sec of the game, lol
There is no pause, even tho other games have it, which is very helpful if someone d/c’s.
Heck, even rejoining is broken because if you quit for X time, you can’t go back, lol

In CSGO, we had games where someone d/c’ed for 5min, and he still could come back, but in OW it doesn’t allow you, lol

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38

Neither of these things “cause” toxic behaviour. They are just excuses people use so they don’t have to take personal responsibility for their actions.

Whilst effective rules and enforcement can help minimise the impact, they will never stop it.

People make their decisions on how to behave, and what they want to do in game. The game, and game mechanics do not control or dictate human behaviour.

Again, your suggestions for using systems from other games is great and all, but there will be a reason why they aren’t in OW. And it probably down to it not being worth the time or effort. Net positives and all that.

39

Narrow-minded point of view.

Bad design leads to dissatisfaction.
Dissatisfaction breads bad emotions.
Bad emotions lead to bad behavior.
Bad behavior leads to toxicity.

Human emotions, and derived from them behavior is an outcome of human interaction with environment, and when environment is full of negative stimuli, then humans are more prone to misbehave in various ways.

It’s pretty well proven trough observation of people who were raised in various environments, where (at least most of the time) someone raised in a good environment full of positive stimuli grows up to be a good empathetic person, and someone raised in an environment full of negative stimuli grows up to be abusive toward other people.

Blizzard is absolutely responsible for at least part of the ongoing toxicity because they create the environment for the people, and they decide what stimuli this environment has.

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40

Narrow minded to blame toxic behaviour, on the toxic person.

Humans choose how they react. They are responsible.

I know you don’t like to take responsibility and want blame everyone and everything else. But the buck stops with you. It is even the the ToS… You are responsible for your own actions.

Be better. That is the only solution.

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