11.0.7 spoilers: Future of the Kirin Tor

Lore Story
21

Nah.

The Kirin Tor was affiliated with the Alliance originally and then masqueraded as a neutral organisation. Jaina and Vereesa then threw a fit when the Sunreavers used the city to move Horde troops through it even though they, themselves, were doing the exact same thing with Alliance troops.

It was also not the first time it turned on the Blood Elves. It did as much back during the era of Garithos and it never received as much backlash as it should have for siding with a racist, unhinged sociopath against a royal.

They’re complicit in pushing Kael’thas off of the deep end, as it can be proposed that if they had not turned on him and his followers then he would not have been quite so desperate as to have to make dangerous pacts elsewhere.

The story has always struggled to handle neutrality well. Theramore was supposedly ‘neutral’ but fully on board with the Alliance - which made it a target for Garrosh.

Another issue is that magic is largely the dominion of the Elves first and foremost and humans on a secondary basis. Despite that, the Kirin Tor is now open to every single race - which just looks rather silly, honestly. Having Trolls and Tauren in such an organisation erodes any sense of aesthetic consistency.

Rather than have the organisation retreat into the background and vow not to meddle in world affairs, the writers should have had a rift form and have it split into different groups.

The other problem is that the Horde no longer truly exists in any meaningful capacity and has been completely neutered. There is no push back against the Alliance whatsoever these days and those of us who have played for a long time have seen the narratives outright shift and be retconned in order to protect the likes of Jaina, Vereesa and Aethas from any meaningful accountability for the Purge of Dalaran.

An event that saw Vereesa and Jaina (more indirectly) complicit in the murder and torture of innocent civilians.

Of course, they’ve now retconned that in a book despite the quests still being present in-game…

I would have liked the faction to be written more honestly, but it was not and even the recent quest line dances around much of the actual issues with the organisation.

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22

which allaince troops, thwre were none, ans jaina threw the Sunrevaer out because they heklp the horde smuggling the divine bell trough dalaran, beaking the neutrality.
One ofe the principle of teh kririn tor, so even that was justifed, ans is even wield accpeted by horde.

why shoud it, or do you want another large faction war- nobody wins becuase Horde evil- horde stonks *isnert a drooling face with dented skull with a red Horde emblen on the forehead
A story that is such dry an unepealling becaue some inviduals cant accept the world gons on ans old rivlyrs ceased to exist.

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Are you tired of the german Forums or why you show up here?

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Did you even do the Horde version of the Purge of Dalaran? One of the big reveals during the quest chain is that Jaina had Alliance soldiers stowed away behind the Antonidas memorial.

I can’t post links to the quest chain due to the backwards way in this forum operates, unfortunately so you’ll have to look it up yourself.

The Horde is not overwhelmingly evil and I say that as someone who doesn’t care for either faction in the first place, but rather individual playable races within the Horde and Alliance.

Many of which have long since suffered as a direct consequence of the terribly written faction conflict and the complete inability to ever hold the likes of Jaina, Vereesa or Sylvanas accountable for their more reprehensible antics. The writers don’t have an issue condemning Garrosh for the murder and torture of civilians but when one of the three women above is complicit in such, suddenly a whole bunch of people emerge from the woodwork to desperately defend them.

Either you’re against the torture and murder of civilians or you aren’t - there isn’t much middle ground there and getting angry over the ‘eViL hOrDe’ is rather bizarre, to be quite honest, if the very reason you’re condemning the faction is for the same thing you readily overlook whenever the Alliance happens to be complicit.

Incidentally, that is why I despise both factions. They’re both hypocrites and as mentioned earlier they’re both written very poorly.

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well, its kinda quit thre, since so many left for reason the story forum (and overall people are less active in general since toxix behaivor)

I dint- because it meant to play the whole campange (inculding rep grind) for the one faction on horde site. (and that was kinda long)

But overall it dint make sense becaue:
First jaina declared (bevor sh*it is gonna happen) dalaran is neutal ans she is for coexisints with teh blood elfes (also the wiki states she dint evict the sunreaver because vaain slightly presur her ans send anduin to negotiate it.
Also, from freaking where come suddenly stomwind troops (there was previusly none in dalaran), also Varain was in a meating with Lor`themar who was abozt to swich sides (Italian move)
So he woud kenw this move woud sour the negotiation and he wash compltly supised about what happend in Dalaran

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We know Dalaran was never neutral so that is not big news.

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Nah what? You made up it that "Kirin Tor masqueraded as a neutral organization:, Kirin Tor always had had deep connection with the Alliance because it supplied most of food, general goods, men and troops from neighboring kingdom, especially Lordaeron.

Later the admission of blood elves into Kirin Tor was an act of favor, under assumption that the Blood Elves, despite being horde affiliated, will behave themselves. Unfortunately Silvermoon authorities proved cowards that would do anything under right pressure, be it creating a mana bomb for Garrosh or partaking in genocide under Sylvanas.

The so called "purge " of Dalaran was the relatively soft and totally justified response to another act of cowardice and treachery of Silvermoon authorities.

Theramore was as neutral as Orgrimmar was. If you seriously try to rationalize Garrosh’s unprovoked act of warmongering and genocide, I am afraid I see no point of furthering this discussion.

That was indeed their sin, although I still have not checked it deeply enough to find out who was in charge in Dalaran back then, but their collaboration with Garithos was a true shame.

Can you bring any evidence? Cite something or provide links to support this claim? Name particular quests that support your claim.

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Jaina and Vereesa should be dead.

29

Such loud words from someone who is afraid of showing us his main, and instead hides behind an alliance alt he doesn’t even play.

30

This is my new main. I will not play my Elf until Midnight. Blizzard seem to not care about the Horde so I won’t give them the satisfaction of torturing myself with content I don’t like.

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Nope. The Kirin Tor were indeed masquerading as a neutral organisation that was supposedly above the petty squabbles between the Horde and Alliance. That they were always closer to the Alliance than the Horde is understandable and not at all surprising but unfortunate - especially given the complexities involved.

Let us not forget that a large reason as to why the Blood Elves are even in the Horde in the first place is due to the initial betrayal of the Kirin Tor when they sided with Garithos.

Nah. They didn’t prove to be ‘cowards’. Their situation was a bleak one. Their kingdom was decimated by the Scourge and the survivors were wrestling with magical addiction.

That wasn’t enough - the Alliance, rather than offer aid, actively sabotaged their efforts at multiple turns which pushed them towards joining the Horde out of necessity in order to survive.

Targeting civilians unaffiliated with the ‘betrayal’ is by no means justified, especially when it results in theft of property, outright murder and torture.

As I said in an earlier post, either such actions are truly unforgivable across the board or it’s simply point scoring between those who seek to wield emotional manipulation in the following manner:

Precisely this. You’re not even being consistent, so I agree there is little point in continuing the discussion. Not that there’s much discussion to be had - the Purge of Dalaran has been a point of controversy for many years now and in addition to never being properly addressed the game’s story has completely gutted itself.

That being said, on one last note…

I can’t post images or videos due to the silly trust system which serves to make meaningful discussion harder when sources cannot be provided.

That being said I am certain there are videos floating around on Youtube. Most recently from Mists of Pandaria Remix that show both the Horde and Alliance perspective - both segments within Dalaran itself show the Silver Covenant gleefully torturing and murdering civilians.

I believe it has since been retconned in one of the lore books, however, which is interesting as it is yet another blatant attempt to sanitise the actions of murderous women. The writers did the same thing with Sylvanas which was equally stupid.

All to come up with contrived excuses to keep the likes of Jaina, Sylvanas and Vereesa around even as the likes of Garrosh are - quite rightly - held fully accountable for their actions and killed off.

In short, it is my view that the entire mess would’ve been mitigated by simply having the Alliance later kill off Aethas and/or Thalen and the Horde given the opportunity to track down and slaughter Vereesa to avenge the fallen.

They didn’t take such a route, however, in favour of trying to write around it rather desperately over time even as the Kirin Tor continually returned to the spotlight - and now the faction is significantly gutted. Something which might not have happened if such issues had been properly and fairly resolved on both sides.

I expect more nonsense like this as the story moves forward, mind you - especially with the way in which the Horde and Alliance are suddenly being pushed as friendly with one another, even in silly cases where it doesn’t make much sense.

Again, I despise the Horde and the Alliance. I didn’t see any real justice for Liam Greymane, either. Despite waiting since Cataclysm for Sylvanas to be held accountable for her invasion of Gilneas and the murder of one of the two heirs to the Gilnean throne.

Now the Forsaken and Gilneans are working together, which is especially jarring to see.

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32

This is world of alliancecraft. Criminals from alliance leaders will never be punished since Blizzard has a clear bias towards them. Been so since Cataclysm.

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33

During Vanilla and TBC Kirin Tor was openly hostile to the horde, the forsaken used to attack and harass Kirin Tor settlements and even outskirts of Dalaran itself. It was only due to the war against Malygos and the Lich King that Kirin Tor allowed Sunreavers and horde adventurers into their city.

Play the forsaken classic quests in Silverpine Forest and Hillsbrad Foothills and maybe do some actual lore research instead of spreading your ignorance on these forums.

By the time Blood Elves assisted Garrosh with Mana Bomb and Darnassus infiltration via Dalaran, the Sunwell has long been restored, magicall addiction no longer an issue and Lich King had been long killed as well.

Yeah, you can’t even read my message, how can I expect you to have read the lore?

Again, you have huge gaps in lore knowledge of both Kirin Tor and Quel’thalas to say the least, there is no point for me in further debating with an ignorant person that doesn’t even realize their ignorance.

Do some proper lore study and maybe then come back later for fruitful debate. Until then, this conversation is over, my Thalassian fellow.

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Yeah, we’re done here - you appear incapable of engaging in debate and instead resort to personal attacks and deliberate misconceptions.

I’m intimately familiar with the game’s lore, going back to the days of the RTS games.

Not that it hugely matters, since the story has been so heavily and frequently retconned and filled with broken aesops and protagonist centric morality that it’s rather laughable that so many around these parts do not see past the petty faction conflict in favour of the real problem - that everything bends over backwards to avoid holding the likes of Jaina, Vereesa and Sylvanas accountable for their crimes.

Of course, back when the Purge of Dalaran actually happened this place was a lot more lively. There’s barely any active posters around now - most people have understandably checked out of the story. Not in the least due to various other issues plaguing it, such as performative tokenism, forced ‘diversity’ and genuine spite towards even some of the more iconic, successful characters such as Arthas. Who, despite having a fitting ending back in WOTLK, was subject to some weird humiliation ritual to desperately try and deflect away from Sylvanas’ crimes.

35

It’s unfortunate that this devolved from a story discussion, to a faction discussion, to personal attacks and insults.

WoW community for you, I guess.

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36

Even 5 years after the last faction plot, that’s the only thing anyone seems interested in. Which says a lot about the interest newer lore is failing to draw. They wouldn’t dominate the discussion, if there were people actually discussing anything else.

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When it has everything in the pot, i’m not surprised. Someone just has to be beaten down to make the other one feel good, I guess. Even if it’s in a fictional space.

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BFA broke too many dishes and escpeially Horde fans are angry alliance heroes still trashtalking us with no chance of being snarky right back in the faces of Anduin and Alleria.