What are you even talking about? What are these comparisons to Wrath meant to prove? I said that it does not matter what class you bring as long as the roster is reasonably diverse. There’s no problem with that. This system is fine, it worked with BFD and Gnomer well. No need to accomodate anything. Just do not stack the same class and you got it, it’s good game design
For somebody that argues with just about every poster on this board, you don’t have very good reading skills.
Wrath was the game that made 10man raiding a viable option; it also changed classes to accomodate for mechanics in 10man. Classic hasn’t.
Which means it does matter. In this argument, you have used the words ‘as long as’ instead of ‘if’. Your argument is non-existent when it relies on the word ‘if’.
‘It doesn’t matter if you meet some certain criteria’ means that it does matter.
Gnomer and BFD were created a mini-raids, not actual raids. They didn’t require class specific mechanics; bar interupts on the last boss of Gnomer. They were also basically re-made ground up instead of being squashed down from larger, pre-existing raids.
And people STILL spent both of those phases complaining about class balance and some classes essentially being useless and disregarded by pugs.
On top of that, what are you going to do about squashing AQ40 mechanics down to 10man? Nobody to remove diseases? Guess you’re hard-stuck on Viscious. No poison removal? Too bad, no Huhuran for you.
Not enough magic damage to deal with the twins? Guess you’ve got to make some of your guildies reroll or just flat out replace them.
Sorry Jack, you can’t play paladin. We already have Bob and Dave that want to play paladin.
As I said, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. You are making it sound as if it were an issue that requires a lot of resources to solve and fundamentally changes the raid. But in reality the old raids are effortlessly convertable to 10 man. Very easy to fix, just make the ability dispellable by both decurse and cure poison. Literally 1 minute adjustment in the type of a debuff and you’re fine.
20 man raids are simply much harder to gather, making the content artificially less accessible without making it more difficult. 20-man raids also lower the significance and impact of each individual player, which is inherently bad because the player should see the visible outcome of their performance. Thank god at least we no longer have the 40 man madness.
10 man raiding is the best format. It allows small friend guilds to exist. Very casual-friendly, too bad the devs killed it with overly complex 20-man Sunken Temple and alienated a huge chunk of the playerbase, causing a population drop. At least they now know the experiment was a failure and will bring 10-man raids back.
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Do you know what an even easier fix would be? You getting more friends.
It’s MUCH easier for you to get MORE people than it is for the rest of us to remove people.
Allowing MORE people into the raid doesn’t make it LESS accessible. This isn’t Heroic 25 man or mythic mode, you don’t NEED 20 people. Last week my guild completed Heat 2 with 17 players with no trouble what-so-ever. You, as an average player, should be able to do Heat 1 with 10-12.
You could exist within 20 and 40 man as well. Again, it’s easier for you to get more people than it is for us to remove people.
Doubt.
No. No it would not be easier. It would be easier if a developer did a few clicks and made the game better rather than if every player had to solve the problem for themselves.
Allowing in itself does not, but tuning the instance to a bigger group does. The more people the raid is intended for, the harder it is to organise and form. Artificial inaccessibility. Not to mention it makes small friend guilds impossible because they cannot sustain such raid sizes.
No. The only reason it came to this in the first place is because the devs killed small guilds which comprised the majority of SoD population with mandatory 20 man ST. Also, if you have a 20 man roster you can split it into 2 10-man rosters, so nothing will happen to you.
It would be much easier for you to find more people than it would for developers to alter the Classic game to suit 10player raids, and for us larger guilds to cut players out.
Once again, it is easier to find people than it is to kick and bench people.
The devs didn’t kill small guilds at all, you created those guilds knowing that you were playing a game INTENDED for larger raid sizes. You were told from day 1 that 10man was temporary for levelling ‘raids’.
This is a YOU issue.
You’re trolling right?
No, we can’t split 20 people into 2 even 10 man teams without forcing players to reroll and respec.
It’s not a matter of what is the easiest way now. It is a matter of what is better for the game long-term. And long-term 10 man is better
Once again, the short trouble you will go through is of no relevance in the greater scheme of things, especially because it’s not really a trouble, you do not need to remove anyone, just split in 2
Yet the game turned out to be very suitable for smaller sizes. Small friend groups are much more natural and easier to sustain. And when they were removed, the population plummeted. Turns out the original 2004 intention was not so good. Who could have thought? Maybe that’s why they cut the size down when the beta ended in 2007?
Yes you can, whom are you trying to fool? Inventing a problem out of nowhere again? Inconveniences will occur but it will be fine. Someone will have to respec and maybe 1 or 2 will leave, the rest is OK. The trouble you will experience surely will be smaller than that everyone experienced when forced to disband entire guilds to adapt to the 20 man format.
No, it isn’t. Wrath tried that and it didn’t work, Cata tried that and it didn’t work, MoP tried it and Blizzard eventually settled on 20man being optimal for the hardest difficulty of the raid and offering everybody else ‘flex’ mode.
Actually trolling: Once again:
That is FAR more trouble than you just finding more people. /2 ‘LF randos to fill our roster’. Easy game.
Inconveniences have occured, yes. You’re the one crying about them and trying to pin the game losing players on raid difficulty.
WoTLK started losing players after every single raid tier, all of which were available in 10man.
you don’t disband guilds by adding more players to them. And again, it is much easier for you to add players than it is for me to split them.
You don’t even have to add 10 extra people, because all of the content is do-able with far less than 20. You can 13 man Onyxia and MC easily, assuming you have the right comp.
Content for more players is better designed, more balanced (proven time and time again) and is much more fun. It’s not my fault you people forgot how to communicate with others and work around more players.
Very debatable as to whether or not it worked and, more importantly, why. Raids in these expansions are substantially harder than in Vanilla and are by default casual-unfriendly, it’s a different story. Even if we were to consider them a failure, which I do not, it would still not be a reason to assume they would fail in Vanilla, especially now that we know for sure they work and even better than 20 man raids.
The trouble of constantly having to find more people is permanent, the trouble of splitting into 2 rosters is temporary. So no, your trouble is smaller. Not going to keep the game permanently in a worse state than it could be out of fear to cause temporary damage.
You do. New players have to come from somewhere. In order to add more people to an existing guild another needs to disband - unless the game’s playerbase grows or a significant amount of solo players suddenly decide to join guilds.
???
You know they all had a ‘normal’ mode, which was incredibly easy, right? They also didn’t require specific class-locking mechanics, like some Classic raids.
They were temporary and were never intended to be end-game content, you’re a fool if you believe otherwise.
False.
Then find permanent people, you know, like those 10 others you have?
And no, I’d have to swap people around EVERY. SINGLE. RAID; otherwise you have a missmatched set up and you have a good team and a bad team. We did this in Karazhan and Zul’aman, unlike you I am actually speaking from experience.
you’re the one asking for it to be in a worse state. If you wanted to play 10man mode, you’d play content designed FOR 10 players, not a game designed with large raid teams inmind.
That’s not how this works and you know it. You find people looking for a guild and you get them to join you, much like every other guild has done and continues to do.
You’re the one preaching that the playerbase is dwindling, you know what that means? Guilds are disbanding and there’s plenty of players looking to join for content; go fishing. Enjoy.
And get used to it, because you’re not getting ‘10 man’ content back. If you’re lucky, you’ll get a flexible mode like Onyxia, Kazzak and Azuregos.
better idea. how about instead of finding way to incoporate this just revert it back like it was. not really that difficult given the fact the bug was in game at launch revert the bug to a fix so many guilds pretty much 98% or so can actually play with the 21 22 23 24 25 26 people that they have in their current rosters.
it wasnt broken so why fix it. with respect, blizzard deemed it broken it wasnt. guilds literally gimp themselves on loot by taking extra players. whats the problem with that. thats on us. not you.
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