A Plea for Better Player Protection in Gold-Based Services

Community General Discussion
102

I have not alluded to that. I have said that Blizzard allows and endorses it. That is true as per their own policy, which I linked above.

I have not used the word “official” in any of my posts, and I have only said “boosting” once to describe the advertisement of it which Blizzard allows per their policy.

So maybe don’t gaslight? Just quote what you want to respond to and respond to that.

I don’t disagree with any of that.

I don’t really have an issue with the rules that Blizzard have established or how players choose to act and operate in the game in accordance with the rules.

If some players want to provide boosts for gold, and some other players want to buy boosts for gold, and both parties act in accordance with Blizzard’s rules, then I have zero quarrels with that.

My quarrels lies with Blizzard’s position on the matter. I expect them to oversee that players act in accordance with their established rules, and that if they don’t, then Blizzard makes right of what’s wrong for all parties involved.
And I am critical of Blizzard, because I don’t think they do that, and I think that’s a disservice to their players. They poison the well.
And from our player perspective, I think it portrays how few consumer rights protections we have in WoW, and how poor they are.

No.
Again, I don’t care how players operate within the free market that Blizzard have created, so long as they do so within the boundaries of the rules that Blizzard have established.
All I expect from Blizzard in that regard is to actually enforce their rules and to repair any wrongdoings for all parties involved.

Beyond that – and which has nothing to do with boosting itself – I expect Blizzard to take responsibility for their own monetary currency exchange and ensure the safety and security of the platform where all trade involving that currency takes place.
That is not a lot to ask for. It’s the bare minimum we would demand in real life anywhere involving money – that it is handled safely and securely. That holds true for your local supermarket as it holds true for your personal bank and the casino downtown. And it should also hold true for World of Warcraft.

But there shouldn’t be a grey market.

World of Warcraft is Blizzard’s intellectual property. They own all of it. They create all the rules. Those rules should exist to ensure that there is no grey market, because every form of behavior should clearly be covered by the rules, so that players know which rules to play by. And it’s Blizzard’s job to enforce their own rules. And if they do so, then players can play and navigate the game without the fear of consequences, because Blizzard’s rules and their enforcement of them provides a safe and secure environment.

I mean, it’s a mass market triple A video game by a world-leading game developer we’re talking about here, not the local market in Cairo, Egypt.

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103

Does the EU bank care where I spend my euros?

From a legitimate business or service provider. Sure, but from rando guy at the alley(grey market) no. You are not doing anything illegal so the police wont arest you, but consumer protection agencies wont help either if you get…scammed.

Boosting always exist no matter. Its only question either we are lenient and tolerate it to a grey level market or we go full inquisition mode and just force it into the black market.
But dont expect boosting we will simply vanish simply because Blizzard said - No.

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104

I emphasize with people being scammed, as scammers are…yeah…not gonna spell that out here, and I know we agree on that.
What I do not emphasize with the in the slightes is blaming the wrong people all the bloody time here and focosuing on the wrong things while failing to accept the fact how one was scammed and that no company in the world can prevent this entirely…yes, that counts for OP, too!
As if Blizzard can magically stop something being in the game since forever while not even Amazon, Paysafe etc. manage to prevent scams.

Do you know why the token got implemented mainly? To fight against this never ending flood of compromized accounts from RMT gold transactions.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to stop RMT, so they tried to fight fire with fire. It did help a bunch, but as with any criminal, they always find other ways to keep compromizing accounts to use for botting, RMT, etc. etc.

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105

WoW token just moves gold from player A to player B in a safe way it adds no gold to the economy so removing it will do little it will just move the buyers to 3rd party ways of getting it and boosts will still happen like since classic.

Many people disagree and think things added to the store should be in game via achivements and people like you asking for more are making the game worse by doing so.

I know you are young and have not played the game the full 20 years like some of us here and seen the changes that have happened and what you are saying has been said many times in different ways before,
You recently join the forums and honestly act like you know better then everyone else here and thats arrogant and you repeatedly talk down to players that have vastly more experince about the game then you.

106

Well that is not the role of the European Central Bank per se, but your national customs and tax administration does retrieve financial information from your bank to ensure that you pay taxes in accordance to the law. Likewise, your local bank is also obligated to ensure that it operates in accordance to the law with regards to whitewashing, and therefore also tracks where you spend your money.

The point being that the EU generally seeks to regulate and pass laws to protect the interests and rights of Europeans – and not the multinational corporations seeking to exploit Europeans. The laws and regulations pertaining to the digital space (and certainly also gaming) are definitely lacking in comparison to the physical space, but ideally they should be treated the same. And I think the legislative momentum is starting to get some traction with regards to gaming where visibility and transparency with regards to digital currency will see some regulation soon (which should also impact Blizzard games, given that they are not very transparent).

But Blizzard aren’t a random guy in an alley.
And the people in World of Warcraft aren’t random guys in alleys either. They are Blizzard’s paying customers who Blizzard are supposed to moderate and police in accordance to their own rules and European laws.
The fact that Blizzard drags their feet is because it is not in their interest to do more. After all, the gaming industry has grown to be this multi-billion dollar industry it is today by employing aggressive, predatory business models that are increasingly more akin to gambling and fraud than they are to gaming – and Blizzard have certainly not been shy to get in on the action themselves.
Obviously the legislation and regulation will catch up eventually, because it’s clearly indefensible that the industry has free reign to monetize their products and services as they please without regards for the consumers whom they seek to exploit.
And when those laws and regulations eventually start getting churned out, we can only hope the Brussels effect will kick in.

Right. And Blizzard should act in accordance with their own rules. There’s no question there. Blizzard decides. And what they’ve decided on they should also enforce. Simple as that. And if they’re unable to enforce their own rules, then they can either address that through their game design, or they can adapt their rules to the reality they’re dealing with. Simply being terrible at deciding on their own rules and subsequently enforcing them is amateurish beyond the pale.

On a somewhat unrelated note, but curious none the less, then Blizzard recently changed their core values. They used to have 8 (chiseled into that Orc statue outside their headquarter). You know, ones like Gameplay First, Play Nice, Play Fair, Embrace Your Inner Geek, and Lead Responsibly, which was described as this:

Our products and practices can affect not only our employees and players – but the industry at large. As one of the world’s leading game companies, we’re committed to making ethical decisions, always keeping our players in mind, and setting a strong example of professionalism and excellence at all times.

Like I said, then Blizzard recently changed their 8 core values. They don’t have them anymore. Too foreign from what the company is today versus what it used to be? Who knows…

Now they have these 5 instead:
About - Blizzard Entertainment
They strike me as more vague, and not holding themselves up to a higher standard.

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107

The players that sell carries are not doing it for in-game gold; they are doing it so they can sell said gold on their website for in real-life money.

Blizzard turns a blind eye to this and won’t be implementing any safeguards because these players are providing a service that motivates other players to buy Tokens.

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108

Its a Blizzard created world. Same as a goverment regulated country but that doesnt stop people from finding loopholes and making grey markets. Same with Blizzard and WoW. If you want to give them players freedom to engage in the fantasy world then expect that some might find ways to… “bend the rules but not break them”.
So unless you are some nobel prize winner in Law who can write a law which is absolutely “loophole” save. Blizzard enforces the law and punishes its rule breakers. But rule benders? They are not breaking said rule.
Same as any police officer. They cant arrest you based on “you kinda broke the law but you didnt kinda break the law”. Either you did or you didnt. Make up your mind.

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109

Or as usual you are ill informed and lying because blizzard shut down multiple boosting teams/discords for RMT which had billions of gold flowing through them.

just one example

even clamping down on GKDP runs

so before spouting off and making wild claims atleast do some research.

All of which effects RMT

110

I think that’s a fair point you’re making.

But I’ll make a few stipulations.

One stipulation is that the incident the OP describes does not show that Blizzard have done right by their customer. Blizzard have every opportunity to punish the wrongdoers and undo the damage done to the victim. They choose only to do one half of that.
That is not in our interest as players.
So whilst there are a lot of scenarios where Blizzard can be excused, there are also a lot of scenarios where Blizzard just has to step up and do a lot better and do right by their customers and fans.

Another stipulation is that unlike the police in the real world who are simply mortals trying to maintain safety and order among other mortals, then Blizzard are Gods of their own creation. Their ability to oversee what happens in World of Warcraft and enforce their own rules far exceeds what they are actually doing. Bots and spammers are good examples of rule violations that Blizzard should be able to oversee and act upon to a far greater degree than they currently do. Their poor action shows that they forsake their own obligation to enforce their rules and ensure a safe play environment for their players.

I don’t expect Blizzard to run a Minority Report kind of operation here. But I expect them to do right by their customers and their fans. And increasingly I don’t think they do.

111

That’s actually a good example of Blizzard bending their own rules, because per their own rules (linked them earlier) there’s nothing that forbids GDKP runs and players have organized them in good faith. I mean, they’ve been around since Vanilla. And by description there’s nothing malicious in players throwing gold into a shared pot and splitting it by the end of a run if everyone agrees to that.

It was just an easier solution for Blizzard to ban GDKP runs than to address the problem of botting and third-party gold-selling which is against their rules.

So that’s a good example of Blizzard forsaking their own obligation toward ensuring a fair play environment and forbidding a reasonable form of player-organized gameplay because they don’t want to address the actual botting and gold-selling that goes on in their game.

I don’t think Blizzard got a lot of cheers for banning GDKPs either.

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112

And they do based on what rule was broken and what wasn’t. The scammer who scammed broke said rule so Blizzard acted upon it.
Yet boosting itself was not a Blizzard supported activity so Blizzard didnt not offer any support either as it would be expected.

Now your suggestion that Blizzard should go beyond and make exceptions. Opens two pandoras boxes:
1 - If you make an exception for one, then everyone should become exceptions then.
2 - Tos has any value if BOTH sides abide by it. Even if Blizzard has the power to change it at will, we still got the power to either accept or deny these changes(aka those LoS windows we get from time to time).
If Blizzard disregards the ToS entirely and just starts acting based on “how they feel at the time of the day” then its going to be a wildwest of a :poop: show. Today Blizzard is feeling kind, tomorrow the GM might wake up on the wrong side of the bed and decide to be :imp: for some laughs.
ToS sets the expectations of what we can do or cant do and what Blizzard can or cannot do to enforce it.
So this philosophical discussion on what Blizzard should do to “save humanity and be its angel” is meaningless. The real world doesnt work like that - sometimes the law favors you…sometimes it doesn’t. We can be winners every time. So Blizzards world wont work differently either…

113

Not on the 3 big realms no, but on the little realms were its even a chore to get a raid team up there were cheers as people were being excluded due to lack of gold.

Atleast they admit its a war that is always on going in

retail
classic
cata
sod
hardcore

ban waves do happen but not nearly enough.

114

That’s why I say it’s ultimately a consumer rights matter.

Because Blizzard are not our friend. They do not have our interests at heart.

I can sit here and argue to the end of time that Blizzard should do this and that, but they won’t. Blizzard will always only do what’s right by themselves.
The Terms of Service is written by Blizzard to do right by Blizzard’s intellectual property. It does not seek to offer any protections to the players, nor does it provide any.

What I don’t understand is why some of you are taking Blizzard’s side when their side is ultimately not yours. You are a player. If misfortune falls upon you for any reason in WoW (like guild banks or professions being wiped out), then you are out of luck.
Arguing that this status quo is okay because it’s reasonable for Blizzard is bizarre to me, because it is an uneven distribution of power and rights where Blizzard hold all the power and all the rights to everything pertaining to World of Warcraft, and we the players hold nothing. And that realization only seems to dawn on us when we find ourselves in the situation of the OP, or those who had their professions or guild banks wiped out, or those who were automatically perma-banned, or those who…It’s just too late then.

Blizzard can’t ban their way out of this problem, and I think they’ve known that for a long time themselves.
But they won’t truly seek to fix the problem, because the gold-selling they’re “at war with” is one they’re in on themselves. Blizzard’s most noble goal is to kick the botters out of the gold-selling market so they can have it to themselves. Blizzard have no desire to actually get rid of gold-selling. They love that players have normalized buying gold. It makes Blizzard a ton of money. They just don’t like that others who aren’t them get some of that money.
So in that regard Blizzard are no different from the botters and the gold-sellers. They all just want to make money off of a playerbase that have become increasingly dependent on gold (by Blizzard’s own design).

If Blizzard had to ban all the bad actors, they’d have to ban themselves.

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115

Because we are not some idiealists but see the world how it is and how it works.
Blizzard is not my friend? Ofc they are not my friend. Blizzard offers their service and if I agree with their terms of service, I do my part of the contract and pay the money and they do their part of the contract.
Blizzard is not my therapist which I can cry on their shoulders for support. They are a business which ultimate goal is to earn a buck, not help with my feeeliiingz.
If I am not pleased with the service Blizzard has provided, I back out from said contract = stop paying and our business relationship ends.

Perhaps if you would get your head of out the clouds and stopped daydreaming about some “ideal world” and deal with the reality in front of you…you would also see stuff differently.

116

Join any boosting community and see how many raids they do per day, or M+ runs. Especially in the beginning of the season. And it would be just ONE boosting community.

GW2 does not have sub fee, and their expansions are cheaper than blizzard’s with way more content and better maps

117

The European Union’s Digital Fairness Act and Digital Services Act, let alone the General Data Protection Regulation, and the upcoming consumer protections pertaining to gaming are what I want to see and what I want to see more of. And I believe more will come in due time.

I am not happy with “the reality in front of me”. Because what I see is an unchecked gaming industry that seeks to exploit its audience in a reckless pursuit for increased revenue by utilizing predatory business models that are almost entirely unregulated and completely unbefitting of products that are made for, catered to, and advertised toward children and young people primarily.
And Blizzard Entertainment do not fall outside of that description.

That kind of attitude where the companies can just present whatever on their own chosen terms with no regard for anything except their own interests, and then you can just take it or leave, is completely unacceptable to me as a European citizen, and though I tolerate it I do not condone it or applaud it, and I certainly do not accept it as a permanent way of being.

So with regards to that way of viewing reality, we disagree strongly on perception.

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118

Crack down too much and the company can just leave as well. Already left China before(for other reasons obviously). So Blizzard is not forced in chains to stay in EU…or can just stay in the UK and anyone outside it can proxy-play it.
So if the EU wants some “safe haven for 3+ year olds who cant be trusted to go to the toilet alone, let alone with their own money and decisions” then thats just the games you will also get. So if thats the goal…then congrats?

119

LOL…

Even if this would be the case and Blizzard did not take money from it.

Do you think you are getting the full price of a token if you actually exchange YOUR gold into real money? And that currency is nothing more than a blizzard balance, you can’t withdraw it to the bank account. So Blizzard benefits fully from this.

Also, us.forums.blizzard. com/en/wow/t/now-im-suspicious-about-how-token-pricing-works/2118335/3

120

The European Union is the largest economic bloc in the world, accounting for 460 million people.
There is this thing called the Brussels effect, because what Brussels decides tends to become the standard, because you don’t turn your back on 460 million consumers. Ask Apple how their lightning cable is doing.

The consumer rights protections that will soon-ish be passed in the EU are well overdue and they will be an important step toward regulating this wild west we’re all trying to navigate in. Blizzard Entertainment are not going to be able to weasel their way out of that as you seem to suggest the possibility of. They have done that so far with national laws (simply not making their games available in Belgium rather than abiding by their national laws), because the cost of losing 12 million potential Belgian customers is worth it to maintain their very profitable and very unregulated and extremely predatory business model. But that same cost/benefit analysis does not hold up when it comes to a bloc consisting of 460 million consumers.

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121

Blizzard, or its employees, might be protecting botters (or even owning them) which is why they r doing such a poor job removing them. Other games, like turtle wow, don’t have this problem like the official wow does