An idea for ret pally mastery

Classes Paladin
21

Which is exactly why the mastery should not be purely divine purpose.

Reduce the holy damage, add divine purpose to make up the difference.

About gcd, i think the game would benefit from a lower gcd and cds not on the gcd, but if it gets reduced to 1 sec it would be way better already.

Also, some people commented about how stats should just increase damage, i disagree 100%, stats, specifically secondary stats should increase your damage, but also make your rotation overall more enjoyable, % damage mastery does not accomplish that.

They can do a lot better to improve stats.

22

Sort of but also not the case:

This link makes you able to see every mastery effect as an example MM hunter has an increased range because of mastery.

There is quite a few that has a damage increase and an extra effect on it.

23

I actually did not read that line, yea it’s just wrong af.

All masteries are not just damage increases. Sure at the end of the day stats increase damage, but it’s about how they do it.

For example, crit for havoc in legion, made your chaos strike refund you fury, haste increases the speed of your rotation or energy regen, enhancement mastery increases your chance to proc stormstrike.

That statement is just wrong.

24

I do agree with that, but also kinda don’t. Because of the FF14 thing i mentioned. I think it’s possible to have a slow GCD and still make the game feel good to play. But on the other hand… DK and Hunters used to have a 1 sec GCD, and both classes were completely ruined for me when Blizzard increased their GCD to 1.5 sec in Legion.

25

The reason why ff gets away with it is because a lot and i mean a lot of abilities are off the gcd.

Iv’e never played ff so this is what iv’e heard from ff players.

But iv’e also heard from a lot of people that it still feels slow.

Honestly, i think 1 sec gcd base would be really good.

Basically, base is 1 sec

100% haste non energy classes is 0.5

Energy classes are 0.75.

26

I started to think about what you are writing here. So I came up with my own variation for this stat on the paladin. generally paladin somehow from tbc I always associated with avenging wrath burst. this made him a power blast specialization. I like him but sometimes it is boring and frustrating. so I thought it would be nice to mix things up with some mastery modifiers. Mastery could make our avenging wrath last longer or have a shorter cooldown at the cost of the benefits it gives us. Depending on your expectations, you could change the damage specifics, gaining one trait would lose another. such a mastery property would also have an interesting interaction with certain talents. I think that with the use of appropriate numbers and converters, it would make the mastery an interesting statistic that would not increase the paladin’s power but would make it more interesting. what do you think about something like this?

27

Dunno to be honest.

I generally dislike over reliance on cooldown, too mush burst means your “normal” rotation has to suck, at least in terms of dps.

Unless you have a spec where you always are in your cd, basically perma avenging, but i think it’s too much of a hassle to balance, what about pvp? What about dying? It has too many problems.

I think the best option is to decrease cd damage, increase duration in general, for most classes that are overly reliant on cds. % damage modifiers are generally not very good, make % haste or crit or mastery modifiers, and make the stats more interesting and fun, then avenging wrath could have a passive that increases it’s duration for every holy power spender you use. This way you could theoretically get very long cds windows with divine purpose and a optimal rotation.

But in general yea, remove % damage modifiers in favor of secondary stats modifiers. Achieve the result you want, meaning higher damage, while also potentially making the rotation more interesting. % damage modifiers can’t do that, because all they do is increase your damage.

I think % modifiers fit well inside something like talents or artifacts, but not main cds, rather have haste crit and mastery modifiers in those.

It’s not easy, but i think they really should try to make stats more fun. The reason why they slap on % damage modifiers is because they are easy, they do the job, they don’t do much else. I don’t expect them to get everything right, but i think they could start making things more interesting.

I think % damage fits well in a progression system like eso cp system, talents and artifacts, but the reason why they fit well is because you can also unlock other things that actually spice up your gameplay, as a progression system should.

Seeing bigger numbers is nice, but what’s nicer is an even better rotation.

28

I don’t understand how stats can be boring or fun. It’s the gameplay as a whole.

29

It’s all about the interactions they have in the specs.

Haste is pretty easy to get right, because what it does is increase the speed of your rotation.

But unlike haste, crit and mastery need to have some form of interaction built in the spec to make them fun, otherwise crit is just do double damage, and mastery is completely spec dependent, it could be fun, or could be just a standard % damage increase.

Ill make you an example, actually 2.

Enhancement mastery increases your chance to proc stormstrike which in turns makes your rotation more fluid with less downtime and more damage, assassination crit gives you double combo point, making you use more finishers, and since finishers cost less than mutilate it also speeds up your rotation slightly.

Or even better, in legion havoc dh used to have this: If you get a crit on your chaos stike you would get back 20 fury, making you use more chaos strike which is the main damage dealing ability, and less demon’s bite, which feels bad to press since it does little to no damage, also using more chaos strike gave you back soul shards if you had demonic appetite, reducing your cd on eye beam, and making you stay in meta for longer.

That’s what i mean when i say interactions, and this is why getting stats and interaction between the specs it so important.

30

I understand that but i don’t see the the upside of having gameplay tied to stats. I would like to have faster rotation than i do now. I enjoy 25% haste gameplay. But i’m probably not gonna get to that before 9.2 maybe even 9.3. You could have Divine Purpose as ret mastery and Art of War proc off of crits instead of a static % chance. But I would rather have them at a reasonable proc chance regardless of gear.

31

I guess we have different opinions, i think that a good baseline for mastery would be about 15%, which is what we have now, for divine purpose.

Along with a diminished holy power damage increase.

For me it just feels really bad when stats don’t do anything aside increasing damage. It diminishes the fun factor.

32

Stats don’t do anything they are just numbers on items, i don’t see how a stat can be fun or boring. Gameplay can be fun. There is no difference between having your Divine Purpose proc chance coming from a talent or mastery.

33

All right, so you actually did not understand the point?

Re read what i wrote before.

34

I don’t think anyone uses it for the range increase. It’s a tiny bonus like the run speed increase for DH.

35

That is what haste does as well. Is haste not also just a stat? Be it damage increase by faster resources/gcd or flat damage increases, mastery is just a damage increase. It is not more impactful than any of the other stats nor does it need to be.
Gameplay variety comes from talents and the borrowed powers. Stats are fine as they are.

36

You do not think here is a little tidbit for you i have used it for the range increase 50yard range is quite good when you can use it to outrange abilities.
Most of the time you will not be able to use it however because of how the encounter arena or strat works.

So now you know someone who has used it for the range increase.

37

Yes it is, and you know it. You are straight lying in front of me.

If it was just about doing more damage, we already have primary stats, but secondary stats can do more than that.

How come everyone complains that at the start of the expansion the class feels worse to play? It’s because you don’t have enough secondary stats.

Haste increases the speed of your rotation which in turns generally makes it more enjoyable as 1.5 sec gcd is just boring, which is why i made the proposal of reducing it.

Yes at the end of the day secondary stats increase damage, but it’s about how they do it. That’s the point, because many masteries are just boring and could be much better.

And crit is also generally boring unless you have some interactions.

38

Just go back to MOP or WOD :smiley: and you fix all paladin issues
because AP weapon was OK but after that you can see how bad it was for this spec
Ret was meh in BFA and is MEH in shadowlands too
you can change mastery or bring the best idea to the table
but the problem of paladin is in its CORE not stat

39

Dont know why ppl bring up MoP ret as being good. My issues with MoP ret is…

Vengance stacking debuff was needed for best normal rotation output aswell as inqustition so the very base rotation was slow to build up.

For burst we also had Guardian that we had to use pre burst to get stacks up, time with renewal of inq to not loose dps. Lets not forget its bad AI, if it didnt hit its target it didnt stack the buff not to mention it was even stronger tell for our burst then wings ever was.

So yhea… and MoP pvp was littered with endless CC from many classes so most could CC a target from 100-0 within 1 chain and the main reason the “pruning” happened. Yet MoP for some god forsaken reason is seen as pvp at its best when all i remember from that time was QQ over the CC til dead… far more then the QQ about current burst meta.

40

I don’t know maybe because it was GOOD? :smiley:
mop/WOD ret was superior to RET we have now in every way