oh yeah ima bad boy i need a spankin
we are not talking about erotic play.
As a member of the horde, I just want to live peacefully.
My hobbies include bathing in gnome blood and feasting on Tauren newborns⌠delicious.
Occasionally I will gank an alliance player and use their skulls as somewhere to leave my people paste
But most of the player base donât want to be âevilâ which is why BfA has been rewritten after the initial genocide backlash with abandoning two additional warfronts (Silvermoon City, btw).
âNot my Hordeâ wasnât just a meme back then.
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"Causes of the invasion
The Cataclysm has caused the gates of the Greymane Wall to shatter, which marked the end of Gilneasâ isolationism from the rest of Azeroth. Due to the events at the Battle of Angrathar the Wrathgate, the Forsaken are âin the dog houseâ with the rest of the Horde and the Horde leadership, now controlled by Garrosh Hellscream has ordered Sylvanas Windrunner to claim Gilneas so the Horde can have a port in southern Lordaeron"
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Invasion_of_Gilneas
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No.
Certainly not the player characters. We are all meant to be âheroesâ.
The answer ranges between a Hard âYesâ to a âEhh, no, not reallyâ BUt I need a cigarette, then will expand upon that.
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She only obeyed what suited her.
She was ordered to attack Gilneas but also not to deploy the plague, yet she did.
Just because the invasion was Garroshâs idea it doesnât mean that Sylvanas and her Forsaken didnât want it. They made Gilneans suffer and they enjoyed it.
Evil is a point of view.
They are bad guys. But this does not mean they are bad guys - Zangief, Wreck-it-Ralph
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To answer this concretely, we have to look at what we mean by âgood guysâ and 'bad guys, which isnât as easy as it sounds. We think it is, but it ainât. We can all pretty much agree on personal morality, killing people because you can is bad, taking their stuff is bad. But applying that to an entire faction or group of nations is really hard.
Is starting a War Evil or Bad? Because just a reminder that Great Britain, France, Belgium and Poland declared war on Germany in 1939, not the other way around. Was that particular regime (Not the German people obviously) the Baddies? Oh heck yes. ButâŚtechnically We started it by declaring War, so are we the baddies? Umm, Trickier.
How justified is justified? Where does Vengeance become Cruelty. Dresden is a horrible example of this, and not one that makes my country look in a particularly good light. We were winning. Then we firebombed Dresden. That was the cruel face of Britannia stabbing a bloodied spear into the enemy. We didnât need to. It was sheer naked -Vengeance- for Coventry, for London, for all our cities bombed. It was Revenge. Pure and simple, were we the Baddies then?
Morality shifts and changes as the tides of War do, it is easy to justify anything by âBut they started it!â or âBut they did worseâ until suddenly everyone is fighting in the same bloodied pit of organs, offal and misery.
But lets step away from real history, and examine Azerothâs.
The Original Horde were dreadful invaders from another world, conquering and burning, and seizing land. Effectively Genghis Khanâs golden Horde. Are all Mongolian people bad people because of back then?
The Hordeâs history has been one of bloody conquest and grabbing what they can and holding onto it till the grim death!
I can name only a few European countries who do not have the same legacy. Are -we- the Bad Guys then? I know my lot were the most famous of those conquerors who rose to prominence over blood, misery and maxim guns, but there are very few European nations who were not âThe Bad Guysâ to someone, usually each other.
Itâs not an ethnic thing either, throughout history people regardless of colour of skin have needed no real reason to act the way the Orcs did to the Humans when they came to Azeroth.
If the Orcish Horde was Evil, or âThe Bad Guysâ? Then we pretty much all are as well.
Second War, are the Horde âEvilâ? Technically they are aiding an invaded people whose land was seized from them. Thats a âGoodâ act, right?
Third War, they were refugees fleeing to a new land, and the Alliance pursue them and wage war. Thatâs a âBadâ act, right?
The morality of Azeroth is pretty much the morality of War, which is very fitting given the name âWorld of Warcraftâ
In War, no one is truly ârightâ.
Taran Zhu pretty much nails it, when standing between Lorâthemar and Jaina on Thunder Isle.
âEvery action justifies a reprisal, and every reprisal justifies a reprisal, this will only end, when you both lower the sword. And WalkâŚAwayâŚâ
(Iâm paraphrasing, but that is pretty much what he said)
And on that occasion he is right. Jaina and Lorâthemar stand down, and no blood is shed, both turn and walk away, no âgoodâ or âbadâ blood is shed.
Now the difference is, who is the Aggressor? Is the Aggressor always wrong then? Was it bad that Britain declared war on the chap with the silly moustacheâs unpleasant regime in 1939?
The Horde is more warlike, but some of its races donât care so much, and arenât even what we would classically define as âbad peopleâ.
Orcs are savage, they are warlike, they are built on Conquest. Cool, you just described Britain, Germany, France, Scandinavia, Russia, everywhere.
Trolls just actually seem to want to survive, but they are pretty racist.
TaurenâŚActually just want to be left the heck alone. Theyâre not even âbadâ people (Apart from the Grimtotem, but every Eden has its serpent)
Forsaken? Yeah, Forsaken are interesting. Iâd say yes, they are Evil. Mainly because they have been manipulated and forged by a spiteful woman without the courage to face her death. Was Zelling Evil? Hell no! So Evil is not their default state.
Blood Elves:? Not really. Theyâre Selfish, for sure, you can rely on an elf to do one thing only. Whatâs best for them. They are utterly pragmatic and donât care who knows it. They can use cruelty as a weapon, but only when there is a point to it, they are not naturally cruel as such.
Goblins:? Theyâre Greedy. If you think Goblins are Evil, then man, you must hate America, or Switzerland, or Monaco, or any rich stateâŚ
It just -isnât- as simple as 1980âs Kidâs cartoons with a cackling villain and the âheroâ breaking the fourth wall, turning to the screen and going âWhat we learned today kids isâŚâ
Because this is World of Warcraft, and in War, The Other side is always the Bad GuysâŚ
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This changes nothing about the morality of the act. Attacking a non warring port and using chemical weapons doesnât suddenly become okay because your commander in chief says âdo itâ.
Fact remains horde decided âwe need a new port, I know, letâs attack this nation that has been exposed following the natural disaster and take theirsâ. There is no way to spin that as a positive or even neutral act given the nation in question has largely kept to itself for the past 20 or so lore years and has no reason to be considered a legitimate threat by the horde, or at least wasnât at time of the attack.
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In the hordes case, the aggressor is usually the bad guy
Theyâre not picking fights with evil dictators, theyâre picking fights with known civillian targets, and using disproportionate force.
In your Britain example we had evidence dude was a whackjob. In hordes case itâs a whole lot of âweâd better do it just in caseâ and Iâm sorry but thatâs typically what not-so-good nations use as byword for justifying their other dubious actions.
Not saying horde is 110% evil, but I donât see how people can argue that they havenât done as much objectively bad crap as the alliance or âtheyâre as bad as each otherâ.
Of course the horde thinks the alliance is evil. That means nothing. A certain moustached whackjob probably thought the Allies were evil. Did that mean they were as bad as him? It is possible to measure such things objectively in terms of commonsense consensus on wicked things (ie if it involves killing innocents or using over the top brutality its fairly generally agreed thatâs not okay, irrespective of whether the ones doing such view their critics as evil).
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No, I donât believe you were.
Yeah, you didnât have to bomb it. And obviously I donât mean Iâm happy you did. Many innocent died that day, no doubt.
But I still donât believe it made you look bad. Because, wellâŚwhen I look at past events like WW2, I try to be in someone elseâs shoes from back then. I really try to see the world like they did and disregard todayâs standards.
As you said it was vengeance, true. In a very dark and cruel way, I believe London needed it, Europe needed it. Payback. It sounds so bad I know. But still justified in my opinion, if you take into account what had happened, what was still happening, what they were up against etc.
Anyway, on topic, if in a hypothetical scenario Tyrande and Genn together completely annihilated every single Forsaken, including innocent ones it would look bad but I wouldnât shred a single tear.
The other races of the Horde I donât really have a problem with.
Good answer. Iâm not being sarcastic, that is a good answer. In that specific instance, the actions of the Horde against a Neutral Nation would indeed be as unjustifiably bad, as the Alliance actions against a Neutral nation at the start of TBC. They are undeniably both unnecessary, and based on either conquest, or finishing the job the Scourge started. Gods alone know why Garrosh decided he needed -another- Deep Water port on Eastern Kingdoms when Quelâthalas already had two, but hey, Garrosh be Garrosh.
The same is true of Quelâthalas after the Second War, but some people who main Alliance will swear it was âd-different, and OK!â
Both were a Faction waging war to some measure on a Neutral nation.
Yes, I would agree there. The Horde is generally the Aggressor. Alliance players donât like it when Blizzard makes them Aggressors, and kick off about it.
Note I never said the Horde are âGood guysâ, I just said things are rarely so clear cut.
The reason I used the Dresden Example and Britain is because I am British, and I am actually proud of my country, not in some ridiculous supremacist way, but because overall, whilst we have a lot of red in our ledger, it is just about balanced out by the black in our ledger, and I did not want to use a different nation in case people thought I was having a dig at them if they came from there.
Look at Sylvanasâ original plan, it wasâŚbad, but not evil, the motive was peace, just peace forced at swordpoint. The Instant she had her stupid temper tantrum and changed the plan to annihilation and genocide then her plan shifted widely on the spectrum and was undeniably an evil and bad act. I donât think anyone could argue that, especially as it was an initial act, not a retaliatory one.
Oh no, they have. When it comes to a litany of Sins the Horde by far has worse on its hands than the Alliance, without a shadow of a doubt.
No one in war is innocent, and no one is purely good, but of the two, the Alliance is the least warlike, that is for certain. Both have their saints, their sinners and the people just trying to get on with life.
It is just as unlikely that the average Blood Elf or Goblin or Orc even wakes up in the morning and thinks âWhat evil thing can I do today?â
What -is- likely however, is that because they are warlike cultures, the Horde individuals are more likely to be swayed towards a path of aggression, than the Alliance individuals.
I donât believe it was different but it was a bad execution. I mean Night Elves, really? Of all the Alliance races they chose them?
Why not humans & dwarves. Like remnants of Garithosâs army, or even a relative of him? They could make them blame QuelâThalas for the fall of Garithos who in their mind was Lordaeronâs last hope. So they raised some banners in the name of vengeance.
Better than having the Night Elves all the way from Kalimdor in order to bother their very distant cousins out of a sudden for no reason.
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I can -see- a reason why they chose them, but it does go a bit off topic, so I may explain that tomorrow if youâre interested, as it makes the lore actually connect up, but I donât want to derail what is a very civil conversation given the contentious issues at hand, but I can see -why- to a degreeâŚ
I think Thrall band of outcast should had been left alone.
A legend that sometimes comes, but none knows.
Trying to make his group in to a force equal to the Alliance, was pretty stupid.
As you said this could only been fabricated after neglecting basic logistics, like population, army numbers, supplies etc.
If Blizzard wanted good vs evil they should had started with Gulâdan Horde.
Both.
In Warcraft 3 you had Thrall, VolâJin and Cairne.
Sylvanas wasnât part of the group.
They only merged in World of Warcraft.
What WoW lacks, comparing to Warcraft 3 ?
4 factions.
- Humans
- Orcs
- Scourge
- Night Elves
Night Elves were compressed in the Human faction and called Alliance.
The people that managed to break away from Arthas Scourge were compressed in to the Orc faction and called Horde.
Hereâs a question: if I want to play a evil faction like Gulâdan Horde or Arthas Scourge where should I go ?
No where because Gulâdan Horde doesnât exist anymore and Arthas Scourge wasnât a playable faction even in WoTLK.
Facts are: Humans vs Orcs makes sense in Warcraft 1 and 2.
It makes 0 sense in WoW because, while the Humans are still there, the Orcs were vanquished.
What to do ?
Just come with âmorally greyâ concept.
Repeat Orgrim Doomhammer rebellion against Blackhand, over and over.
Letâs see the worst periods of the Horde were with:
-
Garrosh Hellscream.
None knew who this character was till TBC came. That expansion where I am still wondering why we raided Illidan in Black Temple just to be told we were wrong in Legion.
He was trouble since the first day of WoTLK:
https://youtu.be/xEylX2LJ8c4
Look at how many times Thrall ask Garrosh to behave. -
Sylvanas.
I saw her as the black sheep of the Horde, since the first day they were in the Horde.
Forsaken are not native of Kalimdor, they are natives of the Eastern Kingdoms.
They donât respect the elements, the ancestors or the Loa.
They desacrate the land they live on.
They canât reproduce.
Finally the only race in Vanilla that couldnât be Shaman.
Can you see all the similarities ?
Because I canât.
Whenever there was conflict between the Horde and the Alliance it was always after a change of Warchief.
-
Thrall has to leave his post because apparently heâs the only one that can help Azeroth, the most powerful Shaman.
I would had rather had him as a permanent Warchief instead of getting Garrosh that unsurprisingly starts a War.
Later on Thrall tells him while they are dueling in MakâGora that he failed the Horde. -
VolâJin is mortality wounded and the Shadows whispered him to chose Sylvanas.
Unsurprisingly Sylvanas starts a War, to kill as many people that she could including Horde soldiers in order to supply souls to the Maw because of her deal with the Jailer.
What happened to the Honorable Horde ?
- Cairne killed during Cataclysm in a MakâGora with Garrosh.
- Thrall left his position as Warchief and never came back.
- VolâJin died during Legion expansion.
Whoâs left from the original Warcraft 3 group ?
None.
Whoâs left from the original World of Warcraft leaders ?
Sylvanas.
- Baine is naive and heâs conveniently miss informed, the day the Horde sets to attack Darnassus.
- Lorâthemar knows he and his people are on the Horde because of Sylvanas.
- Gallywix is a crook sold to the highest bidder.
- The Huojin Pandaren are but representatives.
- The Allied races havenât been on the Horde long enough.
Who can oppose Sylvanas ?
None.
What about Saurfang ?
He is a old war veteran, from Gulâdan Horde.
He is powerless, because unlike VolâJin or Cairne he isnât a racial leader that can mobilize his entire race, like VolâJin did in MoP with the Darkspear Trolls.
This is what the Honorable Horde has representing them in BFA.
The old Orc gets tricked by Sylvanas sweet promise of a quick victory and a everlasting peace under Horde terms, just to realize he was deceived in Darnassus.
By the time he protests itâs too late.
Can the Horde live in peace with the Alliance ?
Yes.
While VolâJin was alive his agreement with Varian was respected.
Unfortunately both are dead now.
In every conflict the Alliance will always hold their Warcraft 1 and 2 position: good guys.
As for the Horde they will have to be temporarily manipulated in to become the Warcraft 1 and 2 Horde.
-
Garrosh tried to build a Orcish Horde free of demonic influence, best example was the Iron Horde. I would compare his Horde to Orgrim Doomhammer Horde.
-
Sylvanas was described as the legitimate successor of Blackhand, when Saurfang was addressing Anduin before they went to Ogrimmar.
Why does this happens ?
Because Activision Blizzard can only write good vs evil.
That works well in expansions where the Horde and the Alliance fight the same enemy.
Not so well when the Horde has to fight the Alliance.
Itâs said that the Horde is guilty for participation and association.
Letâs look at Garrosh and his korâkron guard.
All dead.
Letâs look at the people that took part in Teldrassil:
- Sylvanas cast out of the Horde.
- Nathanos, soon to be killed by Tyrande in SL.
- Saurfang: dead.
Rest of the soldiers, probably killed by the Night Elves, during the Warfront campaign.
Varian to VolâJin in MoP:
âThe Horde has committed heinous crimes VolâJin, but some of you fought against Garroshâs tyranny, for that I am willing to end this bloodshed.
But know this if the Horde fails to uphold Honor as Garrosh did we will end you.â
That was respected untill Legion.
Saurfang knew what he had done and accepted his fate.
If he didnât die in siege of Lordaeron was because Anduin didnât want to.
Also Anduin could had made his fatherâs words true.
This time there was no honorable Horde around since their main leaders were gone.
He decided to talk to Saurfang and ask his help.
Why the Horde is still around ?
Ask Anduin.
I hated BFA since the start and unsurprisingly is the worst expansion ever for me because:
It made clear that when both factions fight each other one plays the victim the other the bad guy, even though that Faction should had died during Warcraft 2.
Sorry for the long post.
Cheers.
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I am. Iâm awful.
There are no bad guys, itâs all morally grey.