Yeah true actually, it’s even worse when most of the group is melee so you’re clearing it unintentionally on top of people panic running to clear it as soon as it pops. I hope they revise the tier 7 affixes so they’re a bit less obnoxious tho it’s mostly copium at this point.
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Doesn’t sound like anything new, just the threshold got moved up with 5 levels. Before there was also a significant difference between 15s groups and anything below that. As in…the runs below 15 were more prone to individual failures and overall more difficult / a struggle.
I’m not sure this will ever change. People want the maximum rewards and since M+ is relatively accessible they do try to push beyond their capabilities. It’s been one of the few main reasons why tools like RIO were/are so utterly popular.
I’ve been running SBG for a weekly key in the +15-17 range as a blood dk, and that pack that cast the mc always goes into legit chaos due to no one thinking to interupt the mc 
I’ve only got so many grips and interupts before I run out myself
When you don’t interrupt them at all those mobs are patchwork. They just stand there doing nothing.
You shouldn’t stun, interrupt or do anything to them because they legit will not do anything at all if you don’t. They only really become active once you stop them the first time.
Decent players are already in higher brackets, in 15-18 even on 19th only leftovers left, including myself, lol.
Gl trying to push rating.
Also rating is just a number, numerous of times I did keys with 3k players who kept dying to some very easy mechanics, (kicks from Jade, COS mob stuns or even first boss’s beam and etc) and it makes me frustrated, and I leave, after which I get /w bro get gut.
Meh, perhaps start playing instead of getting boosts.
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rating being a number or not, you still need it to upgrade items, and have better players join your groups or get invited into groups. the way i see it now, is how you said it. better players are in 20+ bracket, which is virtually untouchable for someone that started a bit late, and lucks a bit of luck. that, or there are not that many players left in the game that can actually play it. i started my day by 2 chesting my 12 CoS (good group, chill) only to spend the next 5 hours in the queue for this to happen:
- deplete 14 TJS (no finish). healer died on first boss becasue frontal. ressed, died again from the same mechanic. because of lack of healing, we all died but tank, who kept it going for 10 minutes on the boss, instead of resetting and not wasting time. then we didnt managed to kill last boss because YOLO.
-deplete 13 TJS. same thing with healer on first boss. took us 2 wipes. people not interrupting fear before 3rd boss and so on.
-deplete 12 RLP. dps premade in my group constantly dead. wasting ress’es on one another, just to be dead the next second, leaving us with nothing in case the tank or healer went down. even if they were told to stop using ress’es, they cba’d.
Ultimately, at this point in the patch you relly on luck to get groups and finish the keys. I’m still to discover a way in which i can transmit an information to pugs so they can understand it. Nice talk gets disregarded, toxic talk gets reported, no talk gets forum posts.
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it was easier in general considering DF pre-patch also increased the modifiers in general so that a 15 before the pre-patch become something between a 18-19 after it. So when you do a 20 in DF you’re probably runnin a 24 from SL.
That’s the daily routine yeah, there’s hardly any point playing at this stage of the patch which is depressing because we won’t get the new season for like 2 months, and that just means that there’s nothing to do pretty much.
There’s a noticeable difference in player quality just comparing to 1-2 months ago, I don’t think I could’ve pushed to 2.4k if groups then were just like the ones. Starting an expansion late tax goes hard.
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That’s literally the case 99% of the time.
Some dungeons get no queues while others like SBG/CoS have hundreds applying at any time during the day.
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I have the receipts
M Plus has long felt mandatory to gear for raids as loot drops seem to have been sparse in comparison. This just makes it worse. I’m not someone who has ever enjoyed M plus and have only ever done it for the weekly chest which then became the vault. It changed from needing to do just one key a week to get your reward to having the chance to get multiple rewards and needing to do more to fill that.
For someone who enjoys M plus this is probably a positive change, for someone like me it’s just adding to my list of chores. I have friends who solely want to do M plus and don’t care about Raiding, though at times they feel they have to do some raiding to get their bis weapons or trinkets etc.
There will always be some players who are out of touch, they think because they find +20 easy that everyone will. There are far less people doing +20s than say +10s.
Quotes from above are from Punyelf, who correctly predicted the current issues with M+ design.
Predictions were made in the following thread:
I agree completely that pugging has always been awful. It is however, the added difficulty in Dragonflight that has truly exacerbated the issue and turned WoW Dragonflight into this awful stressful game with regards to M+.
Yeah it is honestly borderline easier to push the first week of pugging with awful gear than 4-5 months later with much better gear. This of course should not be the case if Blizzard had a good power progression system in the game, but they don´t.
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Basically 16s offer a very desirable crafting reagent, and it drags people in who are more comfortable in 13-14s and made them try for it. And tbqh half of them are hoping to luck out on the right group and just get boosted.
And indeed nobody who can pug 20s has any reason to come down to an 18. The game doesn’t give any incentive for this at all, it’s a terrible waste of their time, so nobody is ever carrying the run, not ever.
So much this.
Making 20s the basic minimum people want for their weekly has been devastating. Look at raider IO stats: the top 1% of players have hit 2900.
…that is a 20 in all keys.
1% of players are reliably clearing the basic minimum standard that everyone wants to achieve for their weekly vault. What exactly did Blizz think would be the effect of this level of overtuning? Of course it’s horrible. And worse, it’s stupid, and it’s predictable, and it was avoidable but nobody chose to avoid it.
The people who reliably do over 20s have stopped interacting with those who don’t. It’s a problem for everyone who hasn’t cleared 20s on the reg - their friends who can do higher have just vanished off into the distance, never to be seen again because the game gives no incentive at all to step back and help with some 16-17 keys.
I got lucky, I have enough contacts, I found enough people doing the 17-20 range that I can still do some keys, and actually play the game. But if I didn’t I’d have given up. I’ve lost touch with almost everyone I used to run with. They’re either doing 20s and won’t bring mains to my 18, or they’ve landed on the wrong side of the equation and just stopped playing.
Again, I’m just thankful I found other good people who are willing to do keys with me, even if they are sometimes on alts. But I feel so sorry for people who didn’t have the connections to find such a group.
As much as I like the lack of chores in DF, the 20 weekly keys is, imo, probably the worst thing ever to happen to the game. It’s broken social connections across the board and I can see why people are starting to leave. It’s crap. I’d like to hope it will change in 10.1 but there is no news about it so… I guess not.
WoW is just not a social game any more. Pretty much anyone could do a bunch of 15s in SL and stack their vault. Can’t do the same in DF. The big frikking elephant in the Blizzard office, tbqh.
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This. Tbf, I don’t even know from what the true difficulty comes from. Is it from the 20 AoE spells you need to dodge before being able to cast a single spell? Or from the 10 spells that go all at once you have to interrupt? Is it from begging your mage or evoker or shaman in your party to use their BL while doing all the above? The problem is most of the people will go in 10+ without knowing half of their toolkit and mechanics, hoping they will brute force it. Sadly that doesn’t happen, becasue of any sign of having someone less experienced, people will just insta leave.
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Asmongold had a good talk about how stressful m+ is on his stream. I wanted to make a thread about it, but I feel like I have spammed the forum enough recently.
Asmongold used to play WoW 24/7 and had top Mythic parses, now whenever he plays WoW he seems stressed out of his mind and exhausted. Talks in the vid about how burned out he feels every time he runs m+.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1771199400?t=1h50m11s
This part is even better lol
WoW andies coping with the fact that the game is designed for people that play professionally - Asmongold
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if you`re not good enough to do a +20 what do you need the higher gear from it for? does LFR rasz require +20 loot to kill? 
Pretty much this. I was perfectly fine playing tons of alts with weekly 15s back in Shadowlands. I am doing +20 keys on this character, but I don’t find it all that enjoyable, and anything that’s not SBG or CoS are still depletes 
Beyond +18 healers and dps seem to get oneshotted way too easily if any of the 179 casts you have to stop goes through.
I am driven by gear, but don’t really care about pushing score and I think way too many players feel “forced” to do keys a few levels above their comfort zone.
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THANK YOU. I don´t understand why this point is so impossible for people to grasp. The current m+ design straight up provides a disincentive to being social in game.
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I think the problem here is that people tend to expect organised ‘events’ for mythic plus, when the reality in most guilds is that people organise themselves. For example, people often ask in game in guild chat if anyone wants to join their key, or post on the discord ‘looking for more’ channel either at the time or to arrange a key that evening or at the weekend.
Even that isn’t where the bulk of keys are arranged, though. For that, you have to look at the people who hang out in voice chat regularly. The most common way for keys to be arranged is by someone asking in voice, “Does anyone want to do a key?”
I know this doesn’t really help you, OP. It’s mostly to make the point to anyone who is dissatisfied with the way mythic plus happens in their guild that you only get out of a guild as much as you put in. If you’re active and involved, you’re much more likely to find people wanting to do things with you.
I mean… it’s not that there is a punishment for a person who can do 20+ to come down to a 16.
It’s that they probably wanted to fill their vault with 8x20s and that is hard work. I’m knackered after doing 6x16s and a couple of 20s in a week. I don’t want to do any more on that character, I need a break.
I don’t blame the 20+ crew for not wanting to engage with my 18 keys any more. Honestly I don’t want to engage with my 18 keys. But here I am, with an HoV 19 I haven’t touched, and my 3rd SBG 19 on my evoker, and I just cannot be arsed. I’m too tired after the first ones. I’ve been doing not-WoW for the past 2 days just to recover from the weekend…
And I do actually like doing M+, it’s just that I feel guilty for anything that isn’t a 20, but I’m barely capable of finishing a 20.
The game moved the goalposts back a very long way and still expects me to be on target from the same spot. It frankly doesn’t feel very fair. I’ve gone from feeling like an above average player (pushing towards 20s in SL) to feeling like a terrible one (pushing towards 20s in DF).
But at least Raider IO stats tell me that literally 99% of people feel the same. As crap and useless as I feel, I’m still actually somewhere in the top 5-10% of players.
Doesn’t help me persuade guildies to join keys though.
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it’s more you get hit by 1 spell on fortified and you go splat.
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