4 percent nerf, then 2 weeks later they buff sub damage because it’s not hitting as hard as outlaw.
They’ll also nerf mistweavers again.
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As long as it’s to fistweaver I don’t mind.
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What’s actually brutal is that outlaw has a team wide haste buff like a mini bloodlust, which literally makes those Mages and Warlocks cast like they’re on crack
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Died to another outlaw rogue…
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It took a sub rogue to eliminate outlaw 
The battle of the immortal tanks
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And you using all of that on yourself, yeah right. If it’s a rogue/lock/shaman/war/dh basically anybody except sp/maybe hunter + ret, ret is a kill target. If you’re using LoH on yourself while the burst is still going and your healer gets CCed for 3 seconds - you are dead. If it’s a caster lobby and you use BOP on yourself - you are dead. The only major CDs is wall and DS, shield of vengeance is popped 3 seconds after you used it. To use WOG you need 3 holy power and mana as well and it’s pretty significant amount. Ret is a dinner for any caster right now.
Oh, one more thing, you forgot to add 3% damage reduction from aura, it is so significant and will always help you to prove your point(no).
Cheat death is garbage, never took this awful talent has it makes me lose the game and never work.
The wall feint isn’t insane but if you can prenwall a go it’s still something, but I guess most people don’t wanna use feint cause you need awareness and actually press the button.
Cheat death is probably useful only into sub rogue and still I never had any great experience with it.
also costs energy to use too, last time i checked the only other class which uses your main resource for a active defensive is warrior for ignore pain which might as well be negligible
True. But then Warriors have 100 rage, 40 rage use for Ignore pain (nearly half rage) VS Rogues 200 energy, 35 energy use for Feint.
I don’t understand what’s the point of Rogues arguing in this thread.
Every single player from 500 rating to AWC competitors know that Cheat Death provides Rogues with far more winrate and rating than they should have.
Try to count the times you have seen Rogues with slow reactions, getting bursted down, and their parachute cheat death passive procs, then they cloak, or get void shifted, or NS by druid, or whatever, and then somehow game turns around and they win. The game should’ve been over then, but it wasn’t, they have to be killed twice.
Try to count the times Rogues in AWC got a 2nd chance in the game because of Cheat Death and did the same.
And it continues to happen to everyone, everywhere. Low rating, mid rating, high rating, 2v2,3v3,Shuffle, RBGs, World PvP.
If you don’t want to remove it, make Cheat Death a choice node with some other very important talent. Aka bring some brain usage into having to play this class defensively. Because the current iteration is literally just zugzug with a cooldown (Diminishing returns for CC), people are cloaking offensively in 95% of games, multiple vanish shields, etc.
I can accept literally everything else every Rogue spec has except the survivalbility.
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No one really cares about Cheat Death. Half the time you die through it anyway. I don’t even play it and I’ve been doing more than fine, just to illustrate how overall unimpactful it really is. The tools that actually “provide rogues with more winrate” are the various CDR talents Outlaw and Sub have, giving them both access (allthough differently) to way more defensives than they should have, way more than is required to properly trade into enemy CDs. And so, they never die.
I don’t understand this mad focus on Cheat Death people have when it literally fails often - and you can make it fail if you know how it works btw. You guys see an Outlaw Rogue use 8x Vanish and 5x Evasion in 6 minutes when both spells are supposed to be 2min CD, and then say “WELL ROGUES DO HAVE CHEAT DEATH”, that’s comical to be honest.
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I think both Cheat death and CDR are bad, and people get triggered by both in equal measure:
- Cheat death because of its passive nature. It is like the “auto-bubble” talent ret used to have a couple of expansions ago. It triggers people, because you got outplayed and still survived
- CDR to me personally is the biggest problem of rogue kit currently - as I said in another thread, we witnessed the battle of the immortal tanks in the EU finals - sub vs outlaw - the two specs with CDR
Speak for yourself mate. Just look at all the tournaments for the past couple of years with games that had Rogues in them and start counting the times they should’ve died instead of procing Cheat death. There are literal semifinal games in previous seasons which are tiebreakers (teams are 2-2, next game determines winner) where people like Whazz get the Cheat Death proc and then turn the game around.
And this is not taking away any credit from how good these players are. Howton played insane yesterday, but even he had 1-2 games with this moment.
But it is a safety parachute people literally have to play around. Which is why most people DON’T want to play around it and focus someone instead. I don’t care if you have 50 vanishes and evasions and cloaks, if u have no trinket and get a coordinated go on yourself with no peel from your team, you should die without pre-pressing something
And this applies everywhere - I literally have games in the last week in arena where a Rogue reacted very slow and didn’t die anyway in a coordinated kill go since he was zugging our healer down (Assa). We blew him up, Cheat death, stun just ended, Vanish, all good.
1 minute later the guy crit my teammate for 380k Kingsbane and he died and we lost
Rogues were not playing Cheat Death in BfA, and only Sub did it AT RARE TIMES in Shadowlands. Cheat Death began to be picked again in DF S1 only because they changed the alternative.
So which past year do you refer to ? The previous ONE ? Laughable.
In the previous years, as you se eloquently put it, Rogues overall played way more without Cheat Death than with Cheat Death (as explained above), so, no, there aren’t many times they should have died but procced Cheat Death.
Ah yes, the previous two, and we ignore the previous 8 ones during which the talent wasn’t even played because it’s unreliable at best. By the way I would also say that it wasn’t picked in Legion, but it might have been at some point in there so I don’t want to sound too certain. It wasn’t picked in WoD. Previous years right.
The melee brute argument. Me want SMASH TARGET. Target lives ? No fun !
I could actually attempt to explain why this isn’t supposed to ever happen when your team doesn’t mess up but I have a feeling I’ll waste my energy.
So… we complain about passive things now. Let me try. DHs have great magic damage reduction passively, which is unnecessary. Well, sometimes DHs get caught and blown up, but because of this “unskilled passive they don’t even have to press” they survive low and get to use Netherwalk, when every other class would have died in that stun. Outrageous !
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I guess rogue can die really fast… against other rogues cause its i guess THE class that can kill anyone solo in a stunlock 
Holy PVP triangle must be restored, one simply cannot do the best damage, best CC, have best tankines and have best mobility ALL in same time, If one of those aspect go high other must suffer
Evry class must have his power and his weakness, right now those weakness are at minimum, and PVP games shoud be resolved around using your strenght in your advantage yet play around your weakness…But where is weakness right now when classes have ALL.
Main problem with WoW PVP right now is that classes are overbloated with power, some more than others, but all are bloated. Some classes reach level when they cannot be played bad, no matter if my mother or R1 play they booth gonna be dangerous and can kill. So arena become fast paced rock-scissor-papper, with crit god watching from above to decide game to lucky hander.
It was funny seeing almost all rogues not die at 0% hp and instead either vanish or get cheat death proc then get back to full hp multiple times…
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according to moonkinmetrics cheat death is taken like 98%… even if it bugs sometimes (never saw it bug) its still a big value spell because its passive and requires no thinking at all.
I can’t count the times that a bad rogue is supposed to die because they used all defensives in his go get saved by cheat death then just vanish after realising what happened gets back almost full hp and because usually CDs are used by then and rogue has CDR it means they just kill you because you can’t do anything.
Not just CDR makes it the rogue will have his CDs more often where you do not, cheat death is like a full insurance you will get that chance even if you do many many mistakes.
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