Just no. Arms is currently top tier n i dont mind at all. Fury on the other hand i never want to see viable ever again inside PvP. When you cant tell if you´re fighting a 1.5k or a 3k fury thats an issue.
Fury should be exclusively viable inside PvE or fully reworked. Whenever its strong it rewards the players for playing full on zugzug mode with 0 awareness n that is not a good thing inside PvP n its the exact reason a big part of the community despises DH except fury is even worse.
People dident play fury in SL because it was so fun to play, they played it because you can pick it up n play it at close to peak performance within 3 minutes.
Fury is infact very much playable in its current spot, its just not toptier inside arena where dampening exists. If anything slaughterhouse should be removed all together to force that abomination spec back into PvE where it belongs.
He is multi r1 and a wow veteran i think he knows that all and he is not quite unright fury is a easy specc and it was broken in sl s3 and 4.
I think fury should never be pvp viable in the 1 place
I don’t know where people take the audacity to say fury should not be viable.
The argument that fury is so easy to play and therefore should never be good in pvp ist just dumb. I could say the same for DH or for rogue. They are also pretty easy to play.
I for one think arms should not be overshadowing fury because it is not harder to play. You press sharpen and basically win the game
What about dk
Same goes for dk. Also not hard to play. For me it was easier to play dk. Got 1800 on dk meanwhile I am at 1400 with fury
Clearly you don’t know how to play arms.
Fury should be a PvE spec only.
As I said people just bitter other people have fun with less buttons. Somehow them pressing many buttons is an important piece of their ego. There are e-sport games where you have to press multiple times less buttons. Its about how you press them, bloated roatation is just an artifitial obsticle between one’s skill and results. Im all for simple rotations for every class btw.
Claiming that there is no difference between 1500 and 3k fury is so absurd in its core, that I right away see a manipulation attempt which hides no real arguments behind it. If you can’t see the difference - it is obvious you lack skill and knowledge to see them - nothing else. No 3k fury can stuck at 1500, no 1500 fury ever get 3k randomly. Feel weird to explain something so basic. I can’t take it serious from anyone unless its a hardstuck 1500 player on mulitple characters, but also at glad rating on fury (which is still not 3k). All in all even 2 buttons (which is a manipulation too or straight up lie, there is at least 3 with annihilator build) can be pressed differently judging by what I’ve just said.
Fury is objectively weak and statistics supports my claim. People realize they can’t fight the truth, so they try mental gymnastics to justify why class they don’t like shouldn’t be buffed.
And all the “every body gonna play fury” if you truly worry so much about everybody playing a fotm class you can apply your time and efforts complaining about rogue, which while sure not a simple class, but almost always is fotm and been flying under blizz radar since 2004. Unless you do so you don’t care about fotm, you - as I said - just gatekeeping people from having fun playing a simple class and bitter they don’t have to struggle with meaningless artificial complications in form of perfecting damage rotation.
Being r1 doesnt make you immune to biased judgments. Neither it means what r1 wants is best for everyone. Blizzard balance mythic raids around top players, see how well it ends with players ignoring it until its nerfed multiple times. Sure great strategy if you want only 0.5% top player enjoying your game.
I think every spec should be viable (tho tanks probably would need some kind of redesign). Why randomly gatekeep some specific spec out of pvp is beyond me. Claiming arms should never be pvp viable holds as much logic for me. Fury originally in vanilla was the pvp spec if Im not mistaken.
You have said multiple times how its easier to play Fury and now you are bringing up vanilla wow did you see boomy in vanilla wow ? stop been so biased just because you play fury its in a decent spot its not at the top its not at the bottom its able to get 3k in solo shuffle would be higher if more top warriors played it more often but most warriors prefer arms because there is more thought that goes into it.
Fury warrior is not stopping you from getting above Elite you also didnt even play the game when fury was meta.
Because Its better to make the game more fun for the majority of the playerbase than for a select few who enjoy to cheese the ladder and get to the top with least resistance tanks also should not be in pvp every single tank spec has a dps/healer counterpart you take tanks to rbg/pve thats what they are made for…
Idc what you say I play dk myself i never want duel wield frost to be meta in rated pvp because it is the exact same as fury warrior just press what lights up and hold W with burst cds coming up every 30-40 seconds and the damage rotation is legit press 1 when it lights up press 2 in between press 3 when it lights up.
Also please tell me what you mean by viable because every class is viable to 2400 and the ladder in shuffle now % based of the same spec there is not a single spec that is not viable because of this.
Do you mean you want it to compete with the S tier specs? and be better than the A tier specs?
Have no idea what you want to say by this.
Don’t project your behavior on me. Im all for viability for every class and spec. You are not. You are biased by definition which is “unfairly prejudiced for or against someone or something.”
Why does it need buffs its a braindead spec in pvp and has no place
tanks also should not be in pvp
By viability I mean being close in perfomance at same skill level if there is a better word to describe it - share and Ill correct myself. People should be able to play whatever they want and have fun - its the main goal for games. Deversity makes it fun. 20 priests and rogues back to back in arena is not even if they are more difficult to play than fury. I advocating for fun by providing us freedom of choice. You on the other hand gatekeep them from it and want them to play the way you consider right, based on your made up ideals.
Still doesnt change the fact its weaker than arms.
Where I ever complained about achieving elite is the problem? You created the windmill yourself and fighting it so furiously. I want all classes and specs to be more or less on the same level. Even ench sham can reach glad or may be 3k, doesnt mean it’s viable or fun to play. Also why would I care about fury meta which was, when I play the game right now?
Wait did you just hijacked my point? Ill repeat myself if you so worried about cheese - go complain about rogues, you conveniently ignored my point about them. You seem to care not about fotm as you pretend, but people having fun on fury, which is proven by your 1st post here where you clearly show your jelousy and call the spec braindead.
Thats why I mentioned a redesign first. Some mmo solve the problem pretty elegant, even healers there are more like ret paladins for example which makes playing healer classes fun. Tho I understand expecting from blizzard something like this is unrealistic.
You just said it again they should be close in performance at the same skill level yet fury is easier than the meeles that are S tier so do you want to make all the other meeles easier?
Because thats the last achievement you can get in solo shuffle or 3v3 there is only r1 after that so if the spec can get 2400 its viable because the classes are so different and they can never be balanced unless they all play the exact same way and then what is the point of even having different classes?
Assasin is the prime example of what you are asking for an easy to play spec that can compete with lets say sub and because its more forgiving it is picked 10x more than sub even tho sub can be played at the same rating as assa.
You think blizzard are going to redesign an entire role just so it works in pvp you are out of your mind tanks are for pve they have no place in rated pvp only in rbgs and im sure they wouldn’t be missed even if they couldnt play in rbgs then go play them MMO stop comparing them to wow nobody wants to play a dumbed down version of the game where everything is the same.
Specs should be niche and have strengths and weaknesses they should also reward the player if they are harder to play just like every single e sports game does as you brought that up earlier everytime an easy to play hero/weapon is meta at top-bottom it is nerfed.
In perfect world where every spec is more or less close (I dont only here to defend fury, but the topic happens to be about and Im know the spec well) yes. If some want to play a more simple spec, why take the option from them. You won’t see all fury just because they press 2 less buttons, simple rotation isnt a big factor when you are perfoming on the same level as if you play arms lets say. On top of it I already mentioned I see the button bloat a problem in general.
So if one class has 10 people above 2400 and other 150 you consider it a good balance because both can reach 2400? Weird conclusion if I understand it right. Balancing is hard but its not impossible to make the gap smaller from 15 times more X than Y at 2400+ to lets say 100 and 150. Still not perfect, but well enough.
Its a substitution of concepts. Your example doesnt work, because assa not only more simple than sub, but also broken. Being broken is by far a more major factor here. And of course its broken not because its simple, but becaus of it’s tool kit, damage etc. If it had lower damage and worse CC lets say it would be as strong as sub while reamain simple too. Pressing 2 more or less buttons in your rotation isnt as big as you think and also not the only thing gameplay boils to.
Not in current state, but they can be and you are too narrow minded to imagine what a great potential it provides if done right.
Why would I if they have good ideas, because you dont like them? If it makes game better for majoity the source of the idea doesnt metter. But you reacted so agressivly when I brought it up makes me think you just angry when someone cretisizes you favorite game. May be its an age thing and you dont want silly youngsters to enjoy wow and change it from what you are used to? 
What a gatekeeper you are. Your opinion just like my might not be relevant. Tho I consider mine superios otherwise I wouldnt defend it.
Imagine insulting wow by saying classes only can be different if they have complex rotation and 2 less buttons ruins whole game.
Skill should be rewarded, complexity for complexity sake brings very little value, mostly for gatekeepers who want to prove everyone how “cool” they are pressing many buttons.
And again losing 2 buttons from rotation doesn’t make wow dumb, I believe it makes it better, bacause people would pay more attention to game and less to little square at the bottom of their screen.
Because some classes are designed to be played around other classes while others are designed to just stick on a target and let another class do the cc Fury warrior is one of them classes what are you saying that we should give every single class the exact same abilities just with different animations and names everyone deals and takes the exact same ammount of damage has the same ammount of mobility and cc?
Because that is the only way wow can ever be balanced if you are playing a fury warrior and your job is only to stick on the target and deal damage untill the target is dead and then you face a WW monk that is supposed to 1 shot during setups and kite because its so squishy outside of cds.
How do you balance this?? one class has to watch DRs track cds make sure people stack before leg sweeping watch positioning so they can port enemy cds while the other just stormbolts the target its training on cd and charges on repeat doing unhealable damage.
Why would you look at the ladder when the ladder changes constantly as you can already see from the ladder the community plays what is best and easiest to play the ladder was full of DH at the start of the xpac now its full of warriors and assa rogues all the DH players who got 2400 before the nerf are still there because there is no decay in this game which they should add.
as you can see from both the EU and NA ladder Sub rogue is capable of been played higher than assa rogue so at the very top you are still rewarded if you play sub to the highest level but its not by much and its 10x easier to play assa thats why the ladder is full of assa players.
No if it had lower damage and worse cc it would fall off to where it belongs if assa is just as good as sub there is 0 reason to ever play sub because assa is more forgiving and the mistakes you make do not matter as much if you buff fury damage or the MS to compete with arms like it was in shadowlands everyone will play fury.
WHY even play a tank then? if you want them to be changed so much its like you are not listening to yourself if you are changing the class completely then why even bother to change it in the first place when how the class works now is fine in all the content it was designed for…
First you are wearing a wrath tabard so you are older than me for sure i quit this game for around 5-6 years when they dumbed down the game in wod-legion and it was for this exact reason nobody enjoyed BFA pvp and legion might have been balanced in the later seasons but the start of it was so bad when no class had an identity they all played the same just had different animations.
Also calling me a gatekeeper? what am i gatekeeping you are asking that certain specs should suffer just because you want easy to pilot specs to compete with hard to play specs which means nobody would bother playing the harder specs or they would have to be designed yet again to be more simple to compete with specs like BM/Fury.
You can get 3k on fury you can swap spec and get r1 with arms warrior is in a good spit it has an easy to play beginner spec that works well even at elite and a spec if you want to take it further.
Even mage is currently feeling great it has the beginner fire spec which is the worst of the 3 with arcane the hardest spec been at the top.
It does when you dont see that some classes have to land cc to get a kill thats where complexity comes from you cant land a kill on fire mage just spamming damage as compared to a BM hunter spamming damage even tho the rotation is exactly the same.
Quote me where I ever said every class should have exact same abilities. Or be the same in general. May be you confusing me with someone?
You seem to not realized balanced doesnt mean every class has to be the same. What classes currently perfome on the same level? Lets say SP and Ele sham arent too different in terms of perfomance. Are they the same class? You have some really weird understanding of how balancing can be.
May be you mean rock/paper/scissors type of balance? Then articulate your thought better. Its not the case for wow and doubt it ever was.
Are you implying classes over multiple games can’t have on average close win rate and perfomance between each other? Overwatch for example has hugely different classes with weaknesses and strengths, yet they are balanced despite how different they are even if not perfectly. Its not impossible to balance wildly different classes. Some matches they gonna feel weaker, while other time they are a bit better suited for current draft and map. Think it is the main thing you miss from my idea. Im not speaking about perfect 50/50 of every class against every class in every situation.
Ladder is best what I have to base off when explaining my ideas, blizzard can (and probably do) have much more sophisticated tools to analyze their game.
And it proves what. A pro ench player can perfome better than some assa players too. Proves my point people still gonna play more complex specs even if other option is insanely broken like assa is.
IF we lower assa perfomance to sub level it automatically makes it less forgiving and more demanding. You say “0 reasons to play sub” yet you just gave an example how people still play sub even when assa so dominant. If assa is nerfed it will be a much more healty distribution.
Because redesigned tank pvp gameplay can be unique and a great addition to wow. WHILE still provide us with option to play the role. Tank role can be very interesting without losing its tank identety.
Are you not? What I ask doesnt take away from other players as I also want it to be balanced. People play sub rogue even now you brought it up yourself. If arms and fury are both on the same level there will be very few people who play fury only because it is easier. What you ask is to take something from people because it doesnt alight with your ideals which I personally find weird and… well… gatekeeperish and leave them only options you approve.
I might be missing your point, because its exhausting arguing with you for so long, sorry if I actually understand it wrong. Have I ever proposed and idea to base kills solely on damage rather than damage+CC. Game can have fewer buttons, while still has cc, damage, mobility and has deep gameplay at its core. This is the last time I reply, Ive said all I wanted, futher dialigue is meaningless we either dont understand each other or disagree, not a hill to die on for me.
sp and ele are completely different actually ye and you need to be pretty good on both to make them work do you compare fury warrior to spriest and ele? but lets say both of them specs had low damage the spriest would come out on top because of the kit it has.
And no what i mean is right now mage is better than BM hunter mage is harder to play but they both track drs and work in setup comps BM is still playable to high ratings even if you nerf their damage by 10-15% of what they have now.
Next patch BM hunter is getting a 25-30% damage buff on all abilities this will make it on par or better than mage at the TOP TOP rank but anything under the TOP rank BM hunter is going to be 10x better than mage just because you have to play mage to its full potential to keep up with someone who can miss trap after trap and still end up winning.
Im done replying now also because you dont see this side of the game you only see what is meta and whats not meta you dont take into account the things some classes have to do to win games vs what you have to do on fury warrior or any starter class to be specific.
A pro enhance player will currently not play anywhere near a random 2.8k assa rogue especially in shuffle.
Look at the ladder you keep bringing up SUB is currently already on par with assa its just harder to play so nobody bothers and it does not work with all the comps in the game like assa does a player shouldnt lose if they are playing better than the person on these monkey specs.
Assa should not be able to compete with Sub at all.
What is gatekeeping you exactly you can go arms and climb the rank you can play fury its viable you just want to get the same results as better players than yourself with putting in less work if anything this is just a snowflake attempt at trying to gaslight you say you play it to have fun with your 2 buttons but you want rewards for it too why cant you just have fun why do you have to push r1 with it ?
You dont have anything to begin with also im not taking anything away from you this is a forum you are asking for buffs when your class works at 3k rating in solo shuffle why do you feel so entitled to be on par with someone who is playing better than you just because you want to have fun???
i like the idea if you mean lets say you want to make a new spec for each tank specialization lets say blood dk but a design built around damage like they did with druid when they added the guardian spec.
But it really does not make sense because blizzard could just add new classes instead of putting resources into this.
Because the only way for fury to be good is to redesign it and give it more utility cc etc make it harder to play and have to do cc to land kills but its best to just keep it where it is an easy to play meele for beginners that can be played to 3k but it doesent completely dominate the ladder and you cant beat players who have to actually play the game and track cds while killing in burst windows.
I understand you perfectly you just dont understand what you are saying and contradict yourself everytime.
Yes if you want fury to be S tier with arms you are saying just this.
Im obviously exaderating abit but if you´re denying the fact that fury being extremely forgiving in terms of how you play you´re the one in denial here. I dont mind if you´re having fun with less buttons, i mind that your fun comes at the expense of everyone elses fun.
Yes i dislike rogues always being strong aswell, the whole cataclysm expansion was never about deathwing but rather the walmart legendary rogues with their statstick daggers n yet i enjoyed cataclysm more than SL S3-S4. The statistics you´re viewing are entirely one dimentional because a proven fact is that a majority of people play whatever is strongest, if arms is S tier why play fury that is an A-B tier? I hate frost dk but if it suddenly allowed me to hit 380k obliterate procs i´d dump unholy in favor of frost because no one wants to play with a handicap.
Just like fury i dont think frost should be enabled in PvP either unless they rework it because whenever frost is viable it simply translates into “it deals too much damage” because it has no utility to offer. While on that topic Fury is considerably stronger than frostdk is.
You keep calling it “gatekeeping” Just like the guardian druids calling everyone gatekeepers when that was nerfed n they could no longer be the backpaddling bear at 2.4k rating. Fury is perfectly viable in its current situation, its overshadowed by arms but its not a bad spec at all. If not being S tier +++++ is considered gatekeeping theres not much to discuss. By all means lets give DK´s back all the tools we had on initial DF release, i wanna tank 4 people while doing same damage as all of them combined n if you disagree about that you´re gatekeeping me from enjoying the game.
shut up, warriors are HELLA OP right now and need to be nerfed into the ground.
And why should balance be based around opinions of the top tier players? These mostly are professional streamers or league players that made this their jobs. This is the group of people that doesn’t represent the average player skill/experience.
Pro players will adapt for any form of balance, most of them are the definition of DPS Gypsies that jump from one class to another to climb.
Sure but you lose 1 stack of charge.