I would also look at individual scenarios of Light vs a Fel hound. You place a Lightforged Draenei of the Army of the Light in front of it and the Fel hound has no chance. I see them as stronger than say a Silver Hand Paladin in an offensive capacity when weilding the Light.
Yes I would say a Fel hound is capable of absorbing the Light or at least mitigating the damage caused to most demons by the Light but I don’t feel it could to the same extent it can when absorbing arcane.
To follow up on this, WOTA Book #2 confirms they can devour the Light. Haidene was devoured by one after she was already wounded by a fel guard’s lance in the stomach. Although the fel guard was slain and Haidene began called upon Elune’s Light to heal herself, a felhunter caught her off guard and drained her.
“She was apparently almost dead when some of the others slew it.”
This is likely the best proof so far! The forums can always count on you, Loremaster Telaryn.
I am not a fan of this reasoning because it places emphasis on a sort of natural scale of power scale that characters have, such that X can never beat Y. It makes RP much less engaging to a point that, in order to be taken seriously, you have to pull off boss-level feats rather than calculated tactics.
A Lightforged surely should have an advantage over a felhound. But a Lightforged is also as vulnerable to a fel hound’s attack as anybody else. And if she just casts fireballs/light bolts against a fel hunter she’s going to have a hard time winning.
They burn mana, not magic. They basically take the bullets out of the gun.
I say this as Lightforged are described as living weapons of the Light. Combine this with thousands of years of experience fighting the Legion I would say they are stronger and more capable than other Light users. It’s what they specialise in!
Fighting a long, bitter war against the Burning Legion, these draenei soldiers were infused with the Holy Light to become living weapons. Victorious at last, these Lightforged stand ready to defend Azeroth.
This isn’t too different from how paladins of the Silver Hand are described, whose ritual to be actually become a paladin isn’t too dissimilar from how Lightforged are made.
I mean yes but I would say there are massive fundamental differences between the two in how they would fare dealing with a fel hound in particular.
Lightforged Draenei and Paladins have entirely seperate ceremonies/ranks/culture/traditions. A Human Paladin is not infused with the Light like a steroid injection. I’ll have to wholly disagree with you on that one.
Yeah. I would say if we strictly compared the two: A Lightforged Draenei would be more effective against the Fel Hound than a Silver Hand paladin (unless that paladin was also a Draenei?). Mostly due to the centuries/milennia more experience in combat and using the Light, in addition to being infused with far more Light than most paladins - to the point where they’re physically changed by it; reforged.
Obviously there’s never a 100% guarantee in anything. Our hypothetical Lightforged could also be facing an equally ancient/viscious Fel Hound, or could simply get unlucky.
(Edit: It’s true that Silver Hand paladins are also changed by the Light in their initiation ritual. They describe it as akin to being “cleansed by fire” or something like that? But it isn’t on the same scale as becoming Lightforged.)
But they actually are.
Yeah, barring thousands of years of experience, the only real difference between the two is how far the ritual goes. One is infused and strengthened by the Light, the other is reforged by it.
Read literally any of the sources I listed above
Incorrect.
The blessings given to a Paladin of the Silver Hand/Argent Crusade are temporary. As part of a Recruit/Squire’s training they are taught to wield the Light. It is a prerequisite for Knighthood and induction to becoming a Junior Paladin. If a Paladin does not feel their Squire is capable then they will not be Knighted and nor are they anything close to the Lightforged.
The blessings at the end of the Knighting ceremony are not permanent nor strictly necessary for a Paladin to weild the Light.
This has strayed off topic. I still maintain my point that a Lightforged Draenei Vinficator would be far more effective in weilding the Light vs any demon than a Paladin would be. Especially a fel hound.
Don’t come at us with facts.
Although they are not necessarily for the Paladin to wield the Light (nor is that a claim anyone has made?), the blessings are what sets them apart from your typical Cleric - which as defined in Rise of the Lich King and Of Blood and Honour are actual Warrior-Priests.
Paladin is above that, being completely remade, scrubbed clean, and filled back up with the Light. The terms “born anew” are literally used to describe the process.
Turning to face the entire assembly, the Archbishop said, “Brothers—you who have gathered here to bear witness—raise your hands and let the Light illuminate this man.” Each of the Clerics and knights raised their right hands and pointed toward Tirion. To Tirion’s amazement, their hands began to glow with a soft, golden radiance. He supposed that, in the excitement of the moment, his eyes were playing tricks on him. Yet, as he watched in wonder, the sunlight that poured in from above began to move slowly across the floor.
As if in response to the assembly’s command, the light came to rest upon Tirion himself. Partially blinded by the intense radiance, Tirion felt his body warmed and energized by its holy power. Every fiber of his being was ignited by divine fire. He could sense life-giving energies flowing through his limbs, energies enough to heal any wound or cure any disease. He mused that these energies were enough to burn even the souls of the accursed denizens of the shadow. Despite himself, he shuddered involuntarily.
Ablaze with hope and joy, Tirion knelt down and took hold of the mighty hammer—the symbol of his holy appointment and station. With joyous tears streaming down his face, he raised his head and looked toward the Archbishop, who smiled warmly back at him.
“Arise, Tirion Fordring—Paladin defender of Lordaeron. Welcome to the Order of the Silver Hand.”
And then the sunlight streaming in through windows in the ceiling slowly began to move toward the prince standing alone in shining armor, and Arthas exhaled in relief. This had to be what Uther had spoken of. The feeling of unworthiness that Uther assured him all paladins felt simply seemed to drag out the moment. The words Uther had spoken came back to him:* No one feels he deserves it… its grace, pure and simple… but the Light loves us anyway.*
Now it shone down on him, in him, through him, and he was forced to shut his eyes against the almost blinding radiance. It warmed at first, then seared, and he winced slightly. He felt—scoured. Emptied, scrubbed clean, then filled again, and he felt the Light swell inside him and then fade away to a tolerable level. He blinked and reached for the hammer, the symbol of the order. As his hand closed about the haft, he looked up at Archbishop Faol, whose benign smile widened.
“Arise, Arthas Menethil, paladin defender of Lordaeron. Welcome to the Order of the Silver Hand.”
Arthas couldn’t help it. He grinned as he grasped the enormous hammer, so large that for a brief moment he thought he wouldn’t be able to lift it, and swung it upward with a whoop. The Light, he realized, made the hammer seem to weigh less in his hands. At his exultant cry, the cathedral suddenly began to ring with the sound of answering cheers and applause.
Every fibre of their body is infused with the Light’s divine fire, making them able to perform superhuman feats like lifting those massive hammers of theirs that no ordinary human could lift, and they’re born anew.
[Citation required]
Fair point, but you cannot compare the Original 5 to today’s Paladins. They are not ordained by Alonsus Faol himself and the memorys of Uther in Shadowlands of the ceremony do not show the original five as Lightforged. (From 40 seconds, granted it is incomplete) https://youtu.be/66HOA7Jx9BU
Turalyon is the only case we see of it and he had to undertake the same ritual any other Lightforged had to.
I work from the Tome of the Silver Hand community resource that has been put together.
The closest similarity I find is this:
High Priest:
“In the light we gather to empower our brother/sister.
“In its grace he will be made anew.
“In its power he shall educate the masses.
“In its strength he shall combat the shadow.
“And in its wisdom, he shall lead his brethren to the eternal rewards of paradise.
The High Priest turns to the gathered of the priesthood on his right.
“Priests and priestesses of the Light, if you deem this man worthy, place your blessings upon him.
The at the end of the ceremony:
High Priest:
“Brothers and sisters, you whom have gathered here to bear witness, raise your hands and let the Light illuminate this man.”
Priesthood and Knights:
Summon rays of golden light that shine down on the initiate and infuse him with a radiant glow for a short period of time.
High Priest:
After the Knights and Priesthood finish:
“[Initiate’s full name with no titles], Paladin defender of the Alliance, welcome to the Order of the Silver Hand
I would not say that Paladins are not reforged like the Lightforged Draenei at all, it is more ceremonial, spiritual than physically or divinely. They are empowered but Paladins of today are not the same as the original five. Their roles have evolved.
It’s also not Alonsus Faol who made them. He lead the ceremony, but it’s the clergy who actually bestow the blessing – and 15 years later, other Paladins during Arthas’s knighthood. Alonsus Faol never personally blessed any of the Paladins besides ceremonially drawing on their forehead with holy oil.
The Silver Hand community is not a source. Last time I visited the discord, you had Worgen Paladins lol
And that’s again incorrect. In both the passages, they are objectively made anew on a physical level. When Tirion later gets stripped of his blessings by Uther 15 years later (so again, it’s not a temporary thing) the focus is entirely on the physical toll he feels when the blessing is gone.
And no, the blessing isn’t what gives them access to the Light. They’re trained users in their own right before they undergo the blessings, as we find through Tirion. There is an obejctive quantifiable energy that’s described leaving him when he’s stripped in the novel, but it’s his own doubt and low self-worth afterwards that cut him off from the Light until he re-discovered his faith.
The audience gasped at Uther’s words. Excommunication was a rare, harsh punishment that stripped a Paladin of his Light-given powers. Though it had only been used a few times, every Paladin lived in mortal fear of it. Tirion could not fathom what was about to happen. Before he could utter another word, Uther made a sweeping motion with his hand. Immediately, Tirion felt a dark shadow pass over him, choking out the holy power of the Light. Panic threatened to overwhelm him as the grace and strengthening energies of the Light fled his body. The blessed energies, which had been such an integral part of him for so long, ebbed away just as if they had never been. Though the light of the Hall never wavered, Tirion felt as if he had been wrapped in darkness and cast down into oblivion. Unable to withstand the raging despair and hopelessness that washed over him in waves, Tirion lowered his head in abject despair.
That discord was a hell hole of racists and phobes of all kinds. Disregard it.
Worgen Paladins/Priests are legitimate. Nothing prevents them weilding the Light or. Undertaking the oaths of the Silver Hand.
Again you’re comparing the original five to the Paladins of today. It would take some serious work to do what happened to Tirion and do not forget he was not “given back” his blessings but remained just as strong.
Doubt is a Paladin’s worst enemy which can weigh heavily when hopelessness sinks in. When Tirion saved Eitrigg from execution after Uther had stripped him of his “power” he saw the Orc was close to death and did the only thing he could, he called upon the Light to heal the Orc and it did.
I would argue that a Paladin’s faith determines how strongly he weilds the Light over an infusion of Holy energy.
Also apologies to the OP, this went off track.
What’s the difference between the original five and the paladins of today? The ritual Arthas underwent is identical to the ritual we see Tirion undergo in of Blood And Honour.
Uther did it with a casual wave of his hand.
Because the Light isn’t something that can simply be taken away from someone. Up until he tried to save Eitrigg, he thought the Light had been taken from him, therefore he couldn’t wield the Light.
Any Paladin that proclaims to be as strong or as pious or as legendary as the original five has a screw loose.
They’re written as heroes for a reason.
The worgen curse amplifies your fear, rage, and doubt - traits that, as you agree, are a Paladin’s worst enemy. Except the worgen cannot get rid of their doubts where other people might be able to eventually overcome them. The curse perpetuates them, always.
Being able to wield the Light does not a Paladin make. There’s a reason why we have never seen one.