Their first duel was initiated by Garrosh, the second by Thrall - I suppose it still was a mak’gora in their eyes because Garrosh appeared to have a seat of power with the Warsong of Alternate Draenor when Thrall caught up with him, judging from the dialogue here: https://wow.gamepedia.com/And_Justice_for_Thrall
Maybe it’s their fault that I’ve seen a big number of mak’gora happen in Orgrimmar that seem nothing but a fancy name given for a common duel 
Hello Manata, first of all, I would like to thank you immensely for this guide, seeing as I am playing a Warsong Orc myself, so your work is really helpful to me to clear up things I did not yet know or had forgotten. Thank you!
Now, as to what happened to Ashenvale after Garrosh Hellscream was defeated, in A Good War it’s described that the Horde had pulled out of Mor’shan Ramparts atleast when Mop was over.
Within an hour, the convoy came within sight of the old Horde fortifications at the edge of the territory. A few years ago, Mor’shan Rampart had been the bulwark against the night elves pushing into the Barrens, but it had been abandoned when Garrosh Hellscream had been deposed.
There should have been night elves on those fortifications. There weren’t. Instead, there were two Horde rogues—an orc and a goblin—sitting comfortably on the structure, legs dangling in the air. They waved at the convoy as it approached, prompting another flurry of chatter among the army.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/story/short-story/a-good-war#tab=2
And Zoram’gar is apparently also a ruin when the Horde arrives there.
Saurfang ordered the army to set up a brief staging ground on the open shores near the ruins of Zoram’gar Outpost. The night elves would never leave the safety of the trees to attack an exposed space, so the Horde could repair their equipment, eat, drink, rest, and tend to their aches and pains without fear of reprisal.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/story/short-story/a-good-war#tab=4
So I think we can pretty safely assume here that the Horde in fact -did- abandon Ashenvale after Garrosh was dethroned. Hope this clears that up!
The issue about the usage of Mak’gora, a “duel of honor” that has happened in Orgrimmar is somewhat based on the inconsistensy of it in-game or other representations.
Not to mention the fact that it has been more commonly used to sound cooler than to say, let’s have a duel. But usually participants choose not to actually play out any consequences.
What is most consistent is that those that take part of a Mak’gora fight to the death or until submission. It was traditionally to the death, though while Thrall was Warchief it became a non-lethal combat, though participants can choose to forgo that.
In Garrosh’s case it was a challenge towards Thrall’s leadership, though we never got to learn if they’d do so traditionally or under Thrall’s change. When Thrall issued the Mak’gora to Garrosh I feel the meaning “duel of honor” is relevant since you can argue that it was for the sake of his own honor or that of the Horde.
Funnily enough Thrall discarded his own change to Mak’gora there.
I thought I read this somewhere but I wasn’t sure where.
This still leaves the fate of Splintertree Post, Hellscream’s Watch, Silverwind Refuge (?), Warsong Lumber Camp and Warsong Labor Camp a mystery though, at least after Garrosh was dethroned.
One can assume that if the Horde was holding Azshara at the time, they might have been able to keep Splintertree Post or Warsong Lumber Camp, but I can only guess at this point. Perhaps the loss of Mor’shan Ramparts and Zoram’gar Outpost was enough to cripple the Horde’s footholds throughout the forest.
It’s odd, because during the pre-patch questing, Saurfang have us travel to Zoram’gar Outpost to let the commander, innkeeper and blacksmith know that an army is coming to take shelter within their walls, making no mention of the place being in ruins at all.
I’m not sure what people consider canon, the novellas or what happens in-game. I suppose it’s up to the individual player.
Great find though, Desartin!
Edit: and yes, Warsong is supreme, without a doubt.
I know Tyrande says at the end of SoO (Iirc) that she will leave Azshara to the Horde, but I could be wrong.
Yep:
''Varian and I spoke at length about the price of peace before his decision here today. I am willing to allow the Horde the use of Azshara’s lumber if they abandon Ashenvale for good. Knowing the way goblins chew through resources, we will see how long that will sustain them.
I support this peace, but I do not share the High King’s confidence. If the Horde breaks treaty to engage us again… my people will be ready.‘’
wow. gamepedia. com/Garrosh_Hellscream_(tactics)#Quotes
Yes, I mentioned this in an earlier post. She was implying that she was going to tell Vol’jin that they could keep the land of Azshara if they pulled out of Ashenvale for good, but we are not really certain if she did make this proposal, or if Vol’jin ever agreed to it.
But as Desartin pointed out, in the “A Good War” novella, Mor’shan Ramparts and Zoram’gar Outpost were both in ruins by the time the Horde army got there (even though Zoram’gar Outpost stands strong during the pre-patch), which one can assume is the result of Vol’jin agreeing to Tyrande’s proposal at the end of Mists of Pandaria, but I find it debatable.
It may well be that they sent a Vanguard ahead of the Army, possibly via ships to regarrison all the old Outposts and Strongholds in advance of the main force, secure a foothold in the region before the Elves noticed.
As for the Warsongs? Pha! Just a bunch of bards!
Cheers for the effort on all the guides that has been put up recently. ![:smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smile.png?v=6" ":smile:")
Informative and nicely written! Hopefully it will inspire more people to try orc roleplay beyond the usual “rrraaagh honor” fashion. The Bleeding Hollow guide inspired me personally.
I’d also be very glad to see someone make an overall roleplaying/lore guide for Draenor orcs, e.g how clans were perceived by others, how common their interaction was (someone mentioned that the clans met twice a year), and what clans took part in what large events in Draenor’s history.
I believe you’re thinking of the Kosh’harg. It happens twice a year and comes from old draenor. Many if not all clans came to it to trade, meet and other things. A very sacred moment of the year.
Made another round of edits to the guide, trying to sharpen the accuracy of impressions and choice of wording here and there. Will continue making tweaks later. Thank you guys for more input on the topic of the Orgrimmar treaty after the Ashenvale War; I will look further into it and add to the guide. If there is something else you find debatable information, please do not hesitate to comment on it.
Reading the Heart of War short story, I’ll also make the adjustment that the red pox, a disease recreated by Gul’dan, could have prevented orcs not only from participating in the First War, but also fighting the Alliance invasion in Outland following the Second War, and from joining the war campaign to Azeroth led by Grom. It might be useful information if your MU Mag’har Warsong is old enough to have lived through these events, to figure out how they might’ve felt about it.
When Garrosh was barely a child, the clans had consolidated to form the Horde and spent months in a fervor preparing for what would become known as the First War. Years later, after the Second War, the Alliance had in turn invaded the orcs’ homeland, and Garrosh had longed to join the Horde’s ranks and fight alongside his father. But his chance came and went, and instead he had remained confined to quarantine in Garadar on account of the red pox, barely able to walk, burning with both the fever of his illness and the shame of his weakness. His own father had gone to Azeroth without so much as a backward glance, never to return to Garadar or his son. And he, Garrosh Hellscream, heir to the Warsong clan, had not had the strength to aid his people. The Horde had rejected him. He may have been Mag’har—uncorrupted—but he was also unwanted.
The Horde had ultimately fallen. The humans had destroyed the Dark Portal and imprisoned the conquered orcs, and the immense wars had ended. The Mag’har were utterly alone. Some of the Horde orcs had remained, to be sure, but they had avoided Garadar, wary and disdainful of its sickened residents. The epidemic had run its course, but superstition and bitterness died hard. The orcs had become a dwindling people, fragmented and ever fighting on the edges for survival. Eventually it had become clear that the Horde was truly ravaged, and its enemies had pushed until hope had faded to ashes and survival had seemed an impossible folly.
http://media.blizzard.com/wow/lore/pdfdownload/leader-story/garrosh-hellscream/garrosh-enUS.pdf - page 5
I like this idea, hopefully someone will go forward with it!
The party won’t start until we walk in
I don’t think it’s supposed to be a competition really. The guides are there to help others get into the mindset of each clan and determine which one they might want to make their orcs be part of – I know in a couple of discords I’m part of, a healthy amount of people were inspired to play Bleeding Hollow, Frostwolf, Warsong, etc after reading through this recent influx of clan guides where previously they didn’t really give orcs a second thought.
Everyone has their own preference for presenting the guide. I personally like a sleek format given by the new forum layout, but that alone doesn’t make or break a guide. It’s personal preference.
If I had to rank (![:roll_eyes:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/roll_eyes.png?v=6" ":roll_eyes:")
) these, I personally really liked Manata’s a lot, even more than my own. Let’s not make this into a popularity contest.
I agree there is plenty of history in this guide. While working on it, I was debating with myself how much of it I should add; but as someone who got interested in orc lore only one year ago and were pretty clueless on the subject in the beginning, I remember just how much information hunting I had to go through to figure out things like a) at what point in time my MU Mag’har could have first entered Azeroth and how old she should’ve been at that point to make sense b) what events related to the Warsong she would have either partaken or heard of in the years before I started playing her.
The reason for adding the expansion related post-First War history is to help others who might wonder similar things as I did if their Warsong is not a fresh arrival from the Alternate Draenor.
It’s a bad trait I have of always trying to see how badly I perform.
Actually, it was stupid of me. I’ll delete everyone’s save my own.
Personally I liked the fact that Manata’s guide was full of information. I didn’t/don’t know much about Warsong lore, so that it was detailed but still pretty concise imo was good, and it’s a helpful source to use as a reference. ![:ok_hand:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/ok_hand.png?v=6" ":ok_hand:")
I’d like to apologise to the other guide writers, for grading it. Though I did it with what I felt was initially good intent, I forgot the ramification it could lead to, I was being thoughtless. For that I am sorry.
These should be pinned
Any good guide should
While I highly agree, we had a thread on the old forum where many of these informative guides were collated - I’m in the process of repeating the same on this one! This guide has been added to the list of “useful threads” here:
“Lok’tar ogar, Big brother
May the Warsong never fade”
Brilliant guide, in the memory of grom…
Bumping the thread so it doesn’t get lost!
Or gets locked.
For the warsong?