You can not make conclusions based on 1 players experience. I am as a +2400 score totally fine doing pug dungeons even below +10 where 3 people per master of doom of mhue’zala are getting hit by it. My last +9 DoS has a story to tell 
And in multiple communities are events organized for mixing more experienced players with less. Like next monday on horde in Chill Streak.
But that’s not really what this is about. it’s good that you want to help people. But the game is built around helping people for a price (not suggesting that’s you though).
The idea of putting an end point on M+ rather than it being infinite is not to drive away all of those Toxic players, its to decrease the range skill levels and difficulty levels by pulling back the top end player. One of the many pros of it, it will push bring the toxicity like Oroni described out of hiding and push them out.
Sure holding back the top players might feel bad to begin with, but it will fall naturally into progression with an end point, rather than a never ending stretch which will feel impossible to a newer player (I’ll return to this later).
You earlier mentioned how a lot of the casual content was grindy and pushing people away… but is it really? It only feels grindy to you because you’d rather be just playing M+ keys and not playing the MMORPG as it always has been.
If it wasn’t for players wanting to push infinite keys, systems like the conduit grinds wouldn’t exist. They are there solely for players who want to push further content. You don’t need them to get to +15, I didn’t even upgrade my legendary to get to +15 in S2, in fact I was still using the BiS fire mage legendary from 9.0, so that was not BiS spec with 2 legendaries out of date.
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to make out what a great player I am. I am merely pointing out that the goal is achievable without these extra systems in place.
You then get high-end players who want to push the content, but don’t want to grind out the extra power to get that much further and then complain about all these grindy systems, when the systems are literally put into place to help them achieve the power consuming dreams for pushing ever higher keys for the only reward of self-satisfaction (and from this season a useless title nobody cares about).
Yet, the rest of the player base are left feeling they need to get these legendaries and upgrade their conduits because that’s what the high end players are doing… and the high end players don’t even like doing it… but it’s there to help you go further because that’s what you want to do.
Now returning back to the point I highlighted.
I returned to WoW at the end of Legion because BFA looked amazing (don’t hit me Oroni). I had taken 2 expansions off. Normal and Heroic raids were the thing when I left and LFR was just starting. I had heard about Mythic raid, and I knew M+ was now a thing and looked forward to trying it.
I didn’t buy legion, as there was no point spending the money for the last couple of weeks, and when BFA pre-patch started I chose not to dabble in M+ as it was a scary concept to me as new player. The normals and heroics were already crazy enough with all this running around, skipping packs and I had no idea what was going on.
Fast forward to BFA, I’ve cleared all the M0s and I’m looking at what the game has to offer. Rated PVP was off the cards, PVP was always the side I did for the fun, I certainly had no interest in organised chaos. Raiding had 4 tiers, LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic. I really liked that Mythic Transmog, but was I good enough to do it? I never had to run a more difficult version of the raid to get the best look from it (sure Transmog wasn’t a thing of old, but how you looked was still a thing). I pugged Uldir Normal and completed it in a couple of weeks, tried pugging Heroic… kicked on 2nd boss for dying once… tried next week, happened again. Put me off raiding for the rest of the game.
Now moving onto M+, I am proud that I got to +5 in BFA S1, what an achievement, I heard all of these things about players doing +10 and above, but +5 was enough. Getting there I had been called every name under the sun and been told that I’m playing my spec wrong, I have the wrong azerite traits or whatever… I just wanted to enjoy the game.
My point being as a new player it just looks like an impossible tower to climb, a never ending one, with a million challenges to get there.
But you get players who moan about AP grinds and Conduit Grinds, but at the end of the day those things didn’t affect me. I just played the game how I wanted to achieved the goals I wanted to. I just did my 3 Islands a week for the Mission Table quest and hopefully get some transmog or a mount (no mount 
).
It seems only the high end players are complaining about these systems being put in the game, and these systems are only being put in the game to help the high end player push higher.
I say cut it off, limit the height of the push and everyone will be happier.
We can stop here. The toxic players are by definition not the high end. You need to be good in network building and socializing to get into the real high end. People play for fun and you should be fun and nice to be around. Otherwise it is not going to work. High end means failing full time. You go in a dungeon to fail. It is hard content. Nobody expect to time a key. It is 30-40 minutes trying to play flawless, and then there is a timer too. Good luck. People fail. By far most of the keys are not getting timed.
The toxic people are usually the low people who expect to win full time. Not understanding they play a difficult game mode and that other players then them are able to make any mistake.
By stopping there, you have completely missed the entire point I’m making on my post, and focusing on near irrelevant side point. Read my entire post, it has nothing to do with Toxicity in the game.
And yes Toxic players do exist at that level, read Oroni admission to this. Sure that might be few and far between, but it exists.
No. Mythic raiders are getting blamed by non raiders/pvp’ers/M+ players for having covenants, conduits, torghast and korthia. The mythic raiders actually have and are spending the time on these grinds and are getting their stuff. Allthough the mythic raiders never asked for so much crap it is actually hurting the new or players with less time.
Tell that to the new players who are seeing an immense mountain of unknown grinds and systems in front of them. I also just timed +15’s on my shaman with my old non damage s1 leggo, on the wrong covenant.
Again, it is pushing away the players who are new and/or have less time. They want to play the game instead of needing to grind 2 months in all kinds of systems by doing every day week in week out exactly the same boring quests in the same small area (Korthia). It is not pushing me away.
And i don’t know what you want to say about your new player experience. I am also not good enough for Mythic raid. So be it.
Look at this topic. Look at the video. And i fully agree with it this game is zero to non accesable for new players. To blame on the systems and grinds.
Not even only new players. Returning players as well. Like, a friend of mine that was coming back and asked me what he should do, told him about everything and he’s just like “what the …” and then later after playing some he went “I think I’m gonna play classic instead”. He didn’t play SL for long at all, he basically hit max level, did a bit of covenant stuff, a little bit m+ and then quit.
He hadn’t played since launch of BFA, where he quit due to AP and azerite, lol and then he comes back to SL’s systems and just quit again.
Yup. This is not an only mythic raiders complaint. This is hurting the whole playerbase, but even more new players or returning players or players with less time. They give up and unsub.
Laughs in the style of Beavis & Butthead
Quite frankly, that is the most abhorrent insult to give anybody- would suggest the OP has a good think before insulting people in that horrible way
You have just completely agreed with my point, without agreeing with my point.
These systems are being put into place to allow content pushers to push further and further. You don’t have to ask for them, but someone is going to do it and that someone is the player that’s going to come out on top. Because they put in the hard work.
Every time, someone will do it and win the season, players will come and go and people will push further and further, further segregating the High End and the normal playing, and making the game worse for the new players.
Now can you understand why I’m saying the Infinite M+ culture is bad?
Because i disagree that these systems are put into place to allow players to push higher. It is created for people who don’t push high end content to stay subbed. Which is backfire’ing completely.
And the new player, like i also was in legion, has to accept they are going in a difficult game and should find like minded players. Like in communities. And because there is no end of M+, the M+ pushers are right now not unsubbed and are alting and having fun in those communities together with the new players.
The M+ culture is atm saving this game. It is a great social event with mixing all kinds of experienced players. It is the best ever happened to the game. No matter the 100 people who are pushing a couple higher and even more higher keys.
So why would someone who doesn’t want to push high end content need to do an AP grind (BFA), or Grind out High Level Conduits.
If you take away the High level conduits, you’ll be doing less DPS and not be able to push the high keys. How does that even help someone who wants to just get to +15… it doesn’t in any way shape or form.
But there are players who want to push higher content, and to do so at the very top end having the Sockets and the High Conduit ilvls is available for them, but it something you have to work for. If you want to be at the top of the game expect to work for it and have to do things you don’t want to do.
I think remove the Conduit system all together, but then you’ll end up with key pushers on the forums saying their limited and can’t push high enough.
Its a double edged sword. Remove the power upgrades and key pushers will be upset that they can’t pusher further, implement the upgrades behind a grind (like everything else in the game), and all newer and less experienced players are put into a system which is overcomplicated…
I vote to remove the complicated systems, and have less key pushing beyond a standard end point. 15 for example. And end up with a game much less time consuming and straight forward to play and put out more content on a regular basis so players who want the constant challenge don’t get bored and go somewhere else…
i.e. reel in the spectrum of skill levels by not allowing players to progress so far.
In some respects I agree with this statement, its very accessible, and as much as I fear the including of M+ Rating, it has certainly been a good addition to it… M+ isn’t the only part of the game… it is at the moment because focus has been put into the wrong places.
This is why I loved BFA so much, everything was fun to do (except Corruption), okay Warfronts were a bit meh, but I still did them all for the Transmog. Islands were great and the rewards we fun (although sparse). The Faction Assaults were great… literally everything outside of the M+ was just as enjoyable as M+ itself.
Now everything seems focused around pushing M+ Further and further and every other part of the game has suffered because of that.
It does not. But it is an artificial number that can go up, and even only world content players are asking for more power. So they are going to do it. Do they need it to kill that mob they already killed with 20 ilvl lower? No they don’t. But still they ask for a power progression curve.
No. Because it does not give a damn a key pusher on the high end is having a +27 or a +28 as highest possible key. It is an artificial number created by the highest key pusher. There is nobody complaining the number is 25, 28 or 35.
Nothing has changed for M+ coming from Legion to BFA into Shadowlands. Raiderio/wowprogress topics are as old as Legion. M+ communities are too. We timed up to +20 in legion. We did it in BFa and we do it now.
I agree with the first part. But you have to understand currently guilds are finishing the mythic raid in the first week and finishing +25’s and higher. You are not going to limit the high end. What you are limiting is people who are lesser skilled (but still way better than me) to be able to get more gear and finally also get the raid finished.
Obviously, the current season is imo also again too long.
Well I’ve realised this before. The meaningful choices which we were told about when SL was introduced, were meaningful choices for 2 types of players the casual player who just uses something because “Oh I wonder what this does”, and then the very top end key pusher who has to make decisions on which legendary or conduit they might need to get through a particular challenge…
everyone else just goes to Icy Viens and looks up their BiS set up.
Needless, it was a system designed with the high end in mind.
I seem to remember during SL S1 a number of topics complaining that there wasn’t going to be a +30 key this season and how it was Blizzards fault. So we’re going to stay in a disagreement here.
Here’s someone complaining about it 
Except, as you said the game is being held together with M+ at the moment, because that’s where the focus has gone.
BFA was a fun game throughout, except apparently at the top end. Shadowlands forgot what fun was all about, why because it was focused on key pushers, boost sellers and selling wow tokens.
But that’s the thing. Its understandable to think it would appear to be like that at the start, but it will naturally fall into place because you’ll have a larger number of players in a smaller space, rather than the playbase span across the cosmos.
Yeah, by the low end players. High end players never complained about it. Apparenlty low end people want to see +30’s timed. But they never got to that level in s1. Also not in bfa. Looking at that topic it is literally 1 player. No more.
Ask blizzard. They are the ones designing the game. And in bfa it was the same. There was nothing to do except pvp/M+.
You create a rush by having a short season. You get even more toxicity. And more people not achieving their goals.
This is something totally agree. This is totally down to Blizz.
I enjoyed Island expeditions farming the transmog and mounts.
Warfronts were meh, but once again I collected the transmog, and that felt great getting those.
I loved Nazjatar, one of my favourite zones in the game. That Undersea Usurper achievement kept me occupied for months.
I could get conquest from Faction Assaults, so I was able to buy the Seasons Gladiator transmog without having to PVP (why they removed this in SL I don’t know).
Levelling new toons was amazing, because I could get lost in quests in zones. The story’s were so in-depth an enjoyable and the best part was there were stories for both factions. Plus several side stories going on as well.
It was so good!
Then when i dinged I could just jump straight into the content i wanted to play (including M+) because everything came naturally as I played (I.e azerite armour, Essenses etc), there was no need to focus particularly areas of the game (ie BIS legendaries), because it didn’t matter, it was there.
Additionally, WQ didn’t feel like a chore and took about 10-15 mins per day.
So, you are wrong, there was plenty to do in BFA.
You only did the ones where you only had to kill one mob and skipped the rest. All others were chores. Especially the turtle ones.
No I did all the ones i needed to do for whatever I was trying to achieve at the time.
Yeh the turtle one was annoying sure, but then you had the one where you had to kill the turtles, so it made everything better. Also making Loh Go! Was great!
I didn’t with yours