Not my fault you don’t realise how overloaded a Warrior is in almost every aspect of the game. Also just for the record I never once said Mage was weak. I’m more referring to Warriors ability solo carry the game vs any comp due to what it can do while using how it can disrupt a Mage as an example. If it can disrupt a Mage that well imagine how much it disrupts other classes with less than a Mage.
But if you’re going to throw out the “But blink poly bro” out there, why would I talk to you.
And that just shows how delusional you are. A warrior at high rating, vs other experienced players most definitely cannot solo carry a game any harder than a good firemage can atm.
Well, if you simplify things, yeah, it is. But as I have multiple times stated in this and other threads, I think all the classes take skill to play in their own way. You dont just pick up any class and climb to elite with 0 knowledge whatsoever.
I have never pretended that warrior is somehow a 500 IQ spec, obviously it isn’t. It’s a class in a game that caters to casual playerbase. Is there a skill ceiling to it? Yes, and it is relatively high, but that goes for any other spec too. As I brought up earlier, if you watch Jellybeans and compare him to your average survival hunter it’s like they are playing different games alltogether. He’s like ten steps ahead of his opponents with his thinking. Same with many warriors, whom sometimes manage to catch not one, not two, but three or more kidneys in a single game with their bladestorm by timing it just right so that the stun actually goes off, but 0.2 seconds later it is broken by the bladestorm because he predicted the rogue would use it and used the BS at the right time, making the rogue waste his go.
Those are insanely hard things to pull off consistently. And despite this, I do not claim that warrior takes more or less skill to play than a mage does. I’d say they take about the same, the way how that skill plays out is just very different. It’s like comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, you might be right, might be not, but it’s all the same. You don’t need to bash him for his rating, and more importantly, shouldn’t rise a fuss when somebody else does it to you in return.
Mages have to my knowledge ever competed in damage vs other casters, and indeed you see this even today. Show me a single clip where in a +1 minute game a mage deals more damage than, say, a shadowpriest, wlock or boomkin does. Because, ta-da, damage isn’t their winning condition. It’s their ability to control the enemy team far more and longer than anybody else, and that paired with on-demand burst which makes them dangerous.
It obviously does. CC is the thing, as said, which mages have always had and which will continue to keep them viable till ad-infinitum. If they have the strongest burst, then the good utility is there to support it. If it isn’t, mage can look for another ally that has that damage, and it just keeps being viable.
Proof: Mage has never been below S tier in a single expansion or patch. Not once.
If the warrior communicates well with their team, rotates their goes perfectly and isn’t stopped/controlled by the enemy team appropriately, then it seems to me that it is perfectly okay for them to be able to stop goes. That’s what they have been doing since burning crusade, that’s their thing. The only expansions this wasn’t the case was Legion and to an extent BFA, though the games were much slower in general too.
Is warrior balanced? Probably not, but as I asked earlier: There needs to be a top dog every season/expansion, so why not warriors this time? Intervene could obviously use a nerf, as I have said several times already, maybe their damage a tiny bit too but fundamentally the idea that the warrior is supposed to have really oppressive damage if he connects and can stop goes very well is not something that is broken, that’s how the spec is supposed to play. In return the spec is very prone to knockbacks, roots and kiting.
I don’t know, it seems to me that mages can PVE even in the AWC’s, seeing some of the matches, and win the games. Sometimes the fights legit end in the first few seconds because you legitimately have only 0.6 second to react to things, and even if you do everything by the book correct sometimes it just isn’t enough.
We can both keep pulling the opposing examples til ad-infinitum but I have not been the claimant to say that mage takes more skill than a warrior does, you are, and therefore the burden of proof is, as said, on you. And so far the only things you have is what somebody says and your own personal experiences, whereas I and the others have raw data that shows that mages are extremely popular class to play in pvp, more than any other dps, and to say that they take more skill to play than a warrior when historically players universally take the path to least resistance, is simply not an argument you can or will win. Unless these mages just suddenly got extremely skilled out of nowhere, which would ruin your how argument that mage training takes way longer, because apparently it only takes less than a season to do so?
I didn’t ever say you should randomly trinket a stormbolt. I did say it’s an option as to what you can do to stop it, and listed a whole lot of other things you can do as well. Your team also has some responsibility to there isn’t anything I can tell you here that is simply an answer to everything, but that’s no excuse to say you can’t do anything, because you obviously can.
Warrior being tanky that has been and should be the case because it has no self-heal to speak of.
Warrior has been able to be far more disruptive in the past contexts, so it seems odd that it is such a problem now.
MS is unchanged since forever.
Warriors actually deal threathening damage for the first time since WoD again, which they should be able to do.
I don’t know, they’d probably die a lot easier. I agree the problem is in the wider game design and if melees have a near constant uptime (debatable), then casters need to be tankier. But that doesn’t mean that the triune ward isn’t an antithesis to mage class design, because it is. Is it required atm? yeah. Does it have a place in mage class design? hell no.
It says more about that than me, if you don’t realise they can do this. Show me your main by the way, stop hiding behind a classic character, or is your ego to fragile?
I’m sorry they don’t. We will not agree here, its far easier to pull of plays on a Warrior than a Mage due it all being instant and also having an abundance of abilities to answer whatever scenario thats infront of them.
Ta da guess what? That is right for Fire, Frost is more built around consistent dmg and control, right now… its consistent dmg is low, plus needing to chain cast all game to even build the dmg.
Sorry but have you see how long a Druid or a Warlock can control and enemy team? while druid have arugably more on demand burst than a Mage with incarn/celestial and convok. by the way… there’s currently more counter play to Combustion than there is to Ret wings, Ele Sham burst and arguably convoke, but people conveniently over look that part.
Sorry but not as much as they think, if you think back historically Mages also always dealt high dmg paired with that CC. Also I’m not saying Mage is weak why do you keep acting like I’m saying it weak? Fire is broken due to Combustion, its that’s simple… if it were more to do with its CC Frost and Arcane would also be broken. But their not… their okay.
Of course, but the with how easy Warrior is to just pick up and play its stupid for a casual class like that to be so strong, its literally the BFA DH of Shadowlands. So many people with far me experience than myself have spoken out about this class, yet they continue to buff it because of PvE.
If you think the Mages in AWC are just PvEing then I feel like you don’t see what’s going on in the games.
You said, just trinket stormbolt if he bolts you on a setup…
Its such a problem now because of the new design of intervene on a 30 second cooldown along with almsot 100% uptime with death sentence combine with Condemn. Thats why its a problem now.
Not through the entire game though shouldn’t.
depends on the melee, Warrior, WW, almost 100% uptime, while dealing crazy dmg. You could argue the same about Death sentence, should a Warrior be able to get and RNG proc charge? should they have a 30s cd on an ability like intervene? no.
You think it’s not hard because you have no idea about all the conditions required to land one.
Wynterscold mentioned already in this thread, about the stuns and time required to cast, but I guess you don’t understand how much those seconds means.
But I guess you are at least consistent with your ignorance. It’s cool, don’t broaden your perspective.
The only game I saw this 100-0 happen was in the empyrian domain map, and the healer was trapped. Only cd the turbo used was a grounding totem while the feral started with burst up, and hunter used kyrian and double tap.
They can be whatever rating but that’s not the right counter when enemy team pops burst cd’s.
I should think that I do since I play a class that has an exact similar, spammable cc that too requires casting to get off: mind control.
Sure it is hard to get it off, even harder to maintain it, especially since it is on my major offensive school, and yet I can do it just fine all the same. I do not go to the forums telling great tales how skilful I am for getting a MC off on double melee team once I baited out all of their kicks and neither of the two had CC on me to speak of.
But even if you don’t take my word the same experience is shared by every warlock, boomy, pala with repentence etc. Mages aren’t a special snowflake in this case, sorry.
No, even frost mage is more setup based caster than compared to all the examples I give. Sure, it does better consistent damage (and arcane does the most out of the lot, I believe), but they’d still be surpassed in damage by things like locks, shamans and druids- Because thats not their niche. Never has been.
Except during BFA corruption stacking.
Well since you’ve not given any proof to show that I guess instead we’ll never know.
Warlock doesn’t have the mobility of a mage, nor is majority of it’s damage (read: Affliction) in the same school as it’s main cc is. Boomkin is different, but actually has to wait longer to get convoke back/incarnation. Neither of these classes has a frequent shield like Triune either, so they are as a result tankier.
I said the exact opposite actually. I did say that even if you made mages deal really abysmal damage (which is kind of the case atm) they’d still be viable because again, they have solid cc and on-demand burst.
I think it is instead coping + seethe that you just don’t know to deal with them, but that’s just my PoV. I hate fdk’s and warriors when I am at the receiving end with a passion too, believe me, but I do not think they are op in any more sense than I have already said.
I see them dropping people under a global at times out of nowhere even when the whole enemy isn’t under a complete cross cc, and bam they are dead. You can blame some of this on the burst meta (which I still btw prefer much more to BFA/Legion slogfest), but to deny that it is anything but pve-bursting is denial. If a warrior pressing stormbolt, popping cd’s and condemn is pve-ing, then sure as hell is pressing combustion and meteor and deleting someone on the spot.
That doesn’t imply you must use it randomly.
Intervene’s been always on a relatively short cd and I believe during WoD with anger management you could get it even lower than that, so that is not the issue. The issue is that it’s a blanket “can’t hit the target” for some time rather than “catches the next ability”, which it was for the majority of it’s existance.
There’s no way in hell a warrior can have a constant uptime on anybody with just condemn death sentence, there simply isn’t enough rage to go around. That, plus the warrior should be slowed/rooted.
Yes they should. In return they shouldn’t have a lot of burst, but since it is a burst meta even the specs that are supposed to have high constant damage can act like bursting (e.g. Affli, SP). The damage’s just very high across the board.
Probably not, and to my knowledge they even patched this during BFA to not work that way. Why it’s been broken, I know not.
Again, don’t feel like this is the main culprit with warriors. The CD is fine, the fact that it catches all the abilities during it’s duration is not. Just one, that’s fine.
Well the easiest example is all of Warriors abilities are instant, Mages casted. You can’t stop a Warrior from from Intervene unless you CC him on every go for example. You can kick, ground, knock aswell as CC/stun the Mage on the cast to stop it. You can actually stop a Mage from CCing without using a stun or CC, the same cannot be said for a Warrior for example.
Warlocks mobility isn’t by any means bad at the moment if you are night fae and while its true druids have to wait longer for their Convoke they also have better forms of CC than a Mage, Cyclone is far better than Poly for example. But they don’t need a shield if they play the frenzied regen legendary. Dont know if you know about what it does or not.
I can deal with them, I know how to play around their stuff, but that doesn’t change that its insane. I assure you Warriors are very broken at the moment, as I have mentioned, most utility in game, best MS effect, very very high overall dmg with almost 100% uptime. Of course its broken, I’d be okay with the dmg if they didn’t have Intervene on a 30 seconds cooldown.
Well yes, ofc Combust is basically a PvE dmg kind of CD, but as I mentioned before the Mages do alot of times outside of these dmg windows and thats where you see how skilled they are. Anyone can push Combust and delete someone, the same and be said for many classes atm, outside of those 1 shot windows is where the skill gap emerges on these 1 shot classes.
Point is, “just trinket it” is not an answer… what about the other 2 classes in the game? what about the Warriors fear, some if I had to Trinket a fear for example earlier to stop a CC landing on my healer so they could do a go. Its not that black and white is my point.
It is an issue, can then it only redirected 1 melee attack, now it redirects every physical ability, whether its a kick, stun or dmg for 6 seconds on a 30 second CD. Do you not realise how insane that is to have on such a short CD.
Well its simple, they also have a normal charge and a leap, ofc there are small windows you can get away from the Warrior… but there’s stormbolt for that. Well you can slow him and should cast Frostbolt to try and slow him but it won’t keep him away or even matter if he has Hamstring on you.
No, they shouldn’t Condemns avarage hit is the same as a Pyro Blast inside of a Combustion window sometimes its more. don’t know if you realised that part. but Condemn is almost spammable.
Also Warriors at the moment have more representation above 2.2k than Mages do. Check Arena mate and see for yourself. If Warrior is so balanced why is it the most represented DPS class in the game currently?
Equally many of the warrior’s abilities (read: all) have a reduced range or only work in melee, while mage has range.
So do that or fake a cc to make him waste the intervene.
I do and it makes my hairline recede by an inch every time I see them play it but it is what it is.
But again, these are just excuses. If mage truly had such abysmal, bad and just worse versions of abilities compared to everybody else, why would they be so popular, expansion after expansion?
We can argue the individual examples for ever but the point doesn’t change. If they were so bad, people wouldn’t play them. It’s that simple.
And equally I think that things like subterfuge, double Shadowstep or feint should be a thing for rogue (nor self-heal), or in mage’s case shimmer and triune ward should be a thing but here we are. Warrior got it’s utility kit back after 2 expansions and I truly believe people just need to (for the most part) learn to play against it/with it rather than reduce warriors back to the damage bots they were for two expansions.
Mages and rogues have more tools to disengage/get away and reset than ever before, so I don’t buy this. Even if their go fails they just reset and do it all over again.
Equally anybody can macro condemn, sharpen blade and swifty macros but it takes skill to predict well when to use banner and/or when to intervene, when to reflect and who to stormbolt.
As I said, it is not an 100% answer since the situations wary. It’s just one of the options you have at your disposal.
Have you been reading the last 6 posts I made? I said that intervene’s obviously too strong because it redirects everything for 6 seconds, rather than just 1 w/e next ability.
Short cd isn’t the issue, the fact that it gives too much on such a short cd is.
I suppose nobody’s cc/ing or slowing the warrior down then because it just sounds like he’s running freely and nobody’s trying to stop him.
I didn’t imply that warrior isn’t good atm, in fact I even asked you that why shouldn’t it be? Someone has to be, so why not them for a change?
Nobody disagrees in this thread that they are obviously strong at the moment. OP even if you want to use the word, but that goes for fire mages too, which is the most played spec in tournaments.
People did object to mage/rogue players having an issue with this because somehow they are less skillful classes yet here we are, what, 20 posts later and we are still waiting for that proof.
It’s funny, the deeper into it this gets, the more it just feels like it’s yet another Mage player unable to accept his class/comp isn’t the pinnacle of skill, and now that he isn’t S+++ tier (Like all of BFA -and- Legion) his missplays finally get punished.
Umm, Banner has range, Intervene has range, stormbolt has range? I dont know what to tell you.
I do fake, but its reliable… you cant guarantee a fake. He will kick and bolt me before he will intervene. even then by the time the bolt is over the stun on the healer is off and he’s now in a position where I can’t chase.
I’m getting tired of saying that, I never said Mage was bad, I’m using the class I PLAY as an example for how much counter play a Warrior has. Imagine how much worse it is other classes with less CC and less mobility vs a Warrior.
well Shimmer was given in compensation for Deep Freeze and Triune was given due to the amount of up time melee will be having this expansion.
If you let them yes, they will… you can actually stop this if you don’t let the Mage freely sheep everything when the Rogue tries to run.
Thats the thing… it doesn’t take skill to use it at the moment because there’s so much of it. Also Intervene is available on every single DR, thats not skill based at all. Since if you waste it, you have it back next go and can use 1 of your other many options to dead with the incoming CC or dmg.
It was a bad answer, its on par with LoS Chaos Bolt.
Its both.
Depends whats happening, you can always afford to cast a Frostbolt.
Yes Fire is broken due to the dmg, but in a small window. Warriors can solo carry games with their dmg and utility quite easily. You also said you think Warriors are “quite fine” at the moment.
Read what he said again, but ontop of that, these abilities are on a decent CD and banner can be oneshot by anything + has a delay on it’s effect.
Which is moot, because in AWC we saw pretty good mages kite and play around warriors, hence we’ve seen QUITE A FEW wizardcomps beat the warriors setups, but I guess you’re just gonna act as if Blizo or Nerdrage aren’t top tier, 'cause they aint bigbrainmagemains.
If that was the case, wouldn’t it have been the same for other casters? You also play one of (if not the) most mobile mage, use your kit right and you can easily kite Melees if you play right with your team, you’re even night fae, you have no excuse to hide behind.
This can be flipped around, Warriors can do X and Y, if you let them. See? Really easy to do.
There’s also only so many interrupts available, or stuns. You cant freely use every stun to stop a poly into an RMX, if you do that you don’t have the tools to stop an important go.
It takes more skill to use intervene and warbanner correctly, than it ever will to do any of the CC you have available in your toolkit, you might not want to admit it, but that’s the fact, you have the option of faking your CC, which means if a warrior pops banner, he just *** , same with intervene and reflect.
The comps you play also have an obnoxious amount of CC available, constantly, that doesn’t really come across as super skilled either, if we’re gonna go by your own mindset.
Yes, fire is broken. Not only due to the dmg, but the amount of cc it brings, how tanky and safe it is while also being able to reset their burst cds pretty often. Ontop of that, it has one of the absolute easiest ways to nuke down a target currently, which is ironic because you mentioned warrior dmg being easy earlier, yet firemage burst is literally nobrain currently.
TL:DR Stop being so insanely biased, you’re not a godmage, stop acting like it.
To add to it, if Fire mage was this pinnacle of skill, it wouldn’t be the most played Caster currently, nor have had as high representation as it had in BFA when random no name mages picked it up, and suddenly got gladiator
I’ve not read the entire discussion, but that just sounds wrong. Getting an instant trap off a petstun, a root or literally any cc is easier than casting a 1.4 seconds spell that can be stopped by literally anything. Sure, you can get the healer locked in place with a DB to ensure that poly will go through (but even that is smart when the enemy healer is smart about positioning, since something like dk-warrior will keep you slowed 24/7 and their healer will often position in a way that does not allow you to just freely shimmer into their melee range), but then the other two enemies can use literally anything to ensure you won’t cast that polymorph. I’d exchange a spammable poly on arcane school for an instant one with 20 sec cooldown any time, honestly.
That’s weird. I came trying to find out ppl opinions of hunters… all I see war and mage talking about each other and writing 2000 word essays on theirn4 button rotations … ohh well…