I find it really sad that the RPG aspect barely matters

I’m pretty sure you are confused with what wow is or those .

Wow never had RP elements in the game , this game is linear and the devs stated that out on numerous occasions .

The quests are linear and straightforward .


Contrary to popular believes, wow’s PVE became harder and harder over the course of the time. If PvE was as easy like in wrath (in terms of class rotation and boss mechanics) then there would not be that need for such min maxing. But here is the thing…Those challenges are the reason why raiding is a good experience nowadays. And in Mythic, you only have 20 available spots, so you gotta make some choices…like…not bringing a spec that suck, because you know… “Bring the class, not the player” and on the same time, some specs are bringing everything on the table whereas other spec don’t. Playing a dps spec from a class that has a healing spec (Except SP and Balance) is such an awful experience in BFA.

There are certainly non raiding and non M+ guilds. I just don’t know what would they spend their time on.

Borrowed power is surely a bad thing.

So much this. So much this :frowning:


Yes. Borrowed power is frustrating, but you gotta admit. There is not much around it.

Giving classes more and more buttons to push on default, with every expansion, just makes the next step, an inevitable pruning the way it was done after pandaria. They can’t just give more and more power to you every time and never take anything away. This strategy, while it has its downsides, is probably the best way they can do these things.

Imagine if Heart of azeroth was permanent. Now you’d be grinding BFA stuff in shadowlands and future expansions too. or if they made them into default abilities, then you had to balance the game around another extra layer of complexity.

And one thing most of us can agree on, is that shadowlands crossed the line already with complexity.


No, it’s about people competing against NPCs.


you have to check if the players you play with are able to compete against those NPCs.

What gives me enjoyment is beating hard content and if someone else is handicapping themselves by not knowing how or wanting to play their class the optimal way I won’t be able to beat the hard content. It’s a team game you know? I don’t want to play with people that have a fantasy that they are some god tier paladin doing alot of damage, I want it to be reality. It’s just that simple.

Alot of people don’t care about the fantasy.


I do think there is still another way.

They maintained the same amount of spells from wrath up to MoP, so I do think they could have kept going this way. I mean, removing stuff, changing how spells work is not that big of a deal.

What a nightmare eh eh.

I feel like I need a rocket science PHD + a computer science PHD in order to figure out wether or not this piece of gear is an upgrade or not…
I really don’t like those layers of complexity, but we’ll do with them… I guess…

This is what happens when you destroy faction identity by adding elves to horde. Role play as what? Undead? Orc? Brutal and honorable horde?
No you’re just majority barbie tmog farmers. Ex alliance who switchedbecause their sought-after race was denied and given to the favourite blizzard faction

You are right that borrowed power sucks, but…

… I don’t exactly understand what you want from others. To play the way you want them to? It’s not enough you can play the way you want, but you want others to also adapt to you instead of you minding your own fun and others minding theirs? That’s never going to happen, everyone is looking for different things and finds fun in different ways. I just don’t understand the point.

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Lol you just proved the point, YOU’RE the one obsessed with the best numbers, not Blizzard.

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Yea. And once you’re kicked from all groups because you’re dealing 30% less damage in comparison to all the other mages, We’ll see how you’ll feel about numbers.

Like it or not, there’s a certain level of expectation in this game if you want to do anything high end. EVEN normal raids and low key mythic+ runs. You won’t get far, if you think you can get away with whatever choice you make because it doesn’t matter. The truth here is, that it does matter.


How clueless are you exactly ?

im sorry that facts trigger you. deep breaths all will be fine, go farm tmog on ur barbie

What facts have you brought up ? That horde play blood elves ? Guess what mate thats a choice. You keep blaming racials over and over again for the faction imbalance yet Alliance has the superior racials. I get it and i know that there is a major problem in the Alliance but its not due to racials or Blood elves, its because the hardcore scene is over at Horde.

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Because not even the one ability I find most interesting comes with my favourite covenant. In fact, the ONE ability I find interesting to play and most transformative as a warlock comes with the ONE covenant that I really don’t want to be a part of. Not my fault that ability is also the strongest currently as it doesn’t change how it works. Go on, call me a filthy mythic raider for wanting interesting gameplay without the cost of aestethics and RP.

This is inevitable if you design fundamentally different abilites and put them in a pack with what’s supposed to be an RPG choice, and the very core of the issue players have with covenants.

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Havent been paying much atention as off late. Is it still Decimation bolt XD ?

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i think you’re comparing MMORPGs to pure RPGs a bit too much
you seem to want the ‘‘freedom’’ of a game like the elder scrolls or something, but that doesnt work in ANY mmo ever made

even hardcore late 90s/early 2000s MMOs like Everquest or Runescape has a ‘‘meta’’, if you dont want to worry about the best covenant or whatever, then don’t, just pick what you want and go about your business

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Yes. An ability that can be planned around and increases the effectiveness of another class ability in it’s future use, scaling into execute…

…against a dot, a slightly different dot and an AoE dot.

Also for example as a ret paladin i get to chose between:
Kyrian - aoe judgement, good for aoe… judgement on a 1 minute cd for ST, boring and useless ability.
Venthyr - 4 min cd 30 second static ground aoe, this is going to be wasted half the time on movement fights… blizz could cut it in half duration and cd and it’d be good, but no.
Night Fae - 45 second blessings, 30 sec duration, this was nerfed multiple times and it’s still annoying to use, it also has 2/4 buffs which are useful for the user. Micromanagement is NOT fun, being a buff bot is not fun either, especially if at some point you’ll be require to buff the top dps at your expense
Necrolords - 30 sec cd that when using a ST is going to generate aoe, so i basically have to ST in an AOE fight to get the bonus, clunky and counter intuitive especially since it also costs 1 HP, so it disrupts my gameplay.

TL;DR Blizz failed designing these abilities, they’re all useless or annoying/cumbersome to use. At this point i’ll probably pick the least annoying one… this is good design? rofl

Ok thanks for the info. And as for the covenant cluster F, i really want to go venthyr everything about them i love (yes even the sexy party), but i really like Decimation bolt aswell. Dont get me wrong from all the 4 “meaningfull choices” Maldraxxus was the second best imo aesthetic wise but i just really really wanted to go Vampire, however knowing Blizzard it might end with us going Night Fae (the actual worst imo) out of pure number value. Its not even min/maxing at this point, we are looking at 20-30% performance losses between abilities and not tacking into acount the soulbinds.

with captain maths at the helm its no surprise this will just get doubled down on

hes quite literally THE min/maxer