This is arena forum. Why are you commenting on arenas if you don’t play arenas?
Go to BG forums - Jito problem solved.
But his post isn’t about BG’s?
He doesn’t do arena because of the design… Right or wrong, he’s giving feedback to Blizzard about arena and how he’d like it designed. That’s his opinion and maybe he’d do arena if it was like that.
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Can you tell me how can you give feedback about arenas if you don’t play them?
I don’t give a feedback about Mythic raiding world first race because I don’t take part in it.
Jito is just regular everyday casual PvP pleb that just plays some skirms and dungs he is not a veteran.
Also this is the best example of why PvP sucks in WoW if people who don’t play it like Jito design it then it will always fail because they have no knowledge about classes, specs, comps and class interactions.
Good example is Vengeance DH being the best FC for 2nd expansion in a row by far. They tried to nerf it but it didn’t change anything because they didn’t address the issue.
That’s my answer to “I have more PvP experience than most people on these forums”. No he doesn’t because doing PvE rotation on enemy in BG doesn’t make you experienced PvP player with a lot of knowledge.
He doesn’t play arena because of how it is designed not because he doesn’t want to… He’s just said if it was designed like this he would play arena…
You don’t mythic raid or give mythic raid feedback, I assume, because you couldn’t carelesss if mythic raiding was good or not because it’s not your cup of tea. He wants to play arena but doesn’t because of the design
But the whole experience thing is another can of worms
Why are you defending this troll? It’s third expansion in a row he is just spamming his nonsences here. He didn’t play arenas back then and he doesn’t play them now. He pretends to be “veteran” yet nobody is impressed with his PvP experience.
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Tell me, Yóú, why is the word feedback written “feedback” ? What exactly does it mean ?
I’ll spoil, it comes from feed, and back, and has some origins in signal technologies if I’m correct where you have a feed, and it would come back.
Clear enough until that point I’m sure. The next part is of more importance.
So, as you might have guessed, the word was created to mean something very close to “the process in which part of the output of a system is returned to its input to regulate its further output”. In simpler words, it means, something is done, then a result comes (back) out of it, which you can use to adjust what you’re going to do next to have a different result you prefer.
Very clear right ? Well, that means if the first part, the action, the input signal, isn’t done, isn’t sent, there won’t be feedback.
Again in other words, Jito cannot give “feedback” about current arenas if he doesn’t do any, what he’s doing here is nowhere near feedback, it’s a wishlist for Santa. Some ideas might be nice and others are terrible, but either way, it isn’t feedback, and as long as he will refuse to play arenas everything he will say will most certainly not be feedback, it’ll be a whim to have a game created about the concepts that are right now present in his mind. If you look closely what he offers is far from solving a lot of the current issues, simply because he hasn’t encountered them live, because it’s not feedback, it’s just the game he would like to play. But this isn’t what the game is. Too bad. Time to dev something.
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I’m not defending him because it’s him or because I agree with him.
If he played 1 arena and didn’t like it… He can give feedback on that 1 arena and the fact he feels that his idea could benefit the community. That is he right. You can strawman him, you can belittle him, you can say he has no right to post here.
But lets look at the facts.
It is to do with arena - so it is in the right forum
Is he trying to be constructive rather than just whine about OP classes or heavy nerfed classes - Yes
In your mind he isn’t solving the issues, in his he is. That’s the magic of freedom of thought, speech and expression.
I don’t agree with him either, but it was a nie change to ‘’’‘Insert class’’ are so op please nerf’’ ‘‘Remove russians from eu servers’’ ‘‘Please nerf X’’ ‘‘Please buff x’’. He gave a clear description of what he would like to see and why.
You don’t agree so you could instead of going on personal attacks, reply to his points with points of your own to be constructive but I suppose that is a bit too much to ask for on the WoW forums
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Oo both at once, let’s see how you’re gunna justify this
Where did I got on personal attacks ?
I actually did, earlier in the thread. Feel free to scroll up instead of (or at least before) being sarcastic.
True. He cannot give feedback on what the competitive game is though, for example. He can’t give feedback about everything yet, and that’s not only in this thread which is why people react that much to him, he does it. Even with one, or even a bit more arenas there will be aspects of arenas that you haven’t seen. Have you healed ? Both brackets ? Have you dps’ed ? Both brackets ? Did you queue into decent, or amazing players, both brackets, to get a feel of what a mastered class is ? Have you fought one PvE item? A team loaded with PvE items ? Have you used said PvE items in arena ? Have you tried different classes to see if the issue isn’t with the ones you play ? All roles all brackets ? Have you been playing tryhard for rewards, putting you up against the elite ? Have you also played casually ? Experience as double dps in 2s ? I could go on for a lot longer. The point is, his lack of arena playtime makes it IMPOSSIBLE for him to have a real experience at all, or even at half, of these things. He said it himself mutiple times, no time to play, no time to PvP, no will to get in arena despite being zn Alterac Valley tryhard (I still wonder the relevance with ranked arenas btw). Therefore what he gives isn’t FEEDBACK. It’s just a whim ! He hasn’t bothered to learn current 3vs3 yet says AI would be nice to learn, well, how can he say that without taking time himself to try out the current system ? That’s but one example of the whole post and honestly of most (not all but most) of the messages he posts on the arena forums. On one hand he claims himself not to take part in the activites he talks about (and a couple checks would confirm unless he’s actually a ninja with untraceable hidden r1 accounts) and on the other hand he tries to make what he writes be seen as feedback.
That’s doesn’t work like that in this world. In order to give feedback you try, you spend time, and when it’s done you can say okay, this isn’t very practical I suggest you make it easier to access, and boom, you gave feedback. But saying ooooh, this I didn’t tey but it doesn’t look practical, “have you tried?”, no and I won’t but Imma say it’s not practical because I have decided it accept me fidbak, that, sir Shaman, isn’t feedback and that’s what Jito does. Since he writes such nice sentences all the time I trust he is aware of the meaning of the word, of its definition and how he doesn’t respect that, but we’ve yet to see him concede that refusing to try but suggesting changes isn’t what we commonly call feedback.
Tbh the problem with balance only exists because Blizzard doesn’t know how to balance their game. I made another topic about it. Blizzard only tweaks numbers and change damage rotations why they don’t touch class/skill interaction.
For example Dota 2 has one guy who balances the game IceFrog. He takes all balance decisions and he plays and watches his game. He understands every change’s consequences. Sometimes he obviously makes mistake but if something is broken it gets fixed in less than a week. In extreme situations it takes 1 month to tweak something due to Major tournament.
Good example is Ember Spirit who got insanely buffed with his Aghanim Effect. Instead of nerfing damage/armor/hp they made roots stopping him from using escape mechanism. Roots were weak vs him so they fixed the issue. Is Ember good? Yeah it is still but you can’t put him in every line up and expecting him to do well. Exactly opposite thing happened to Resto Druid in 8.2. There were few comps where other healers were favoured but in majority of cases R Druid was way superior.
That’s the effect of unexperienced developers responsible for PvP trying to make it easy to balance in their oppinion. Removing utilty and skill cap in order to leave boring and stale gameplay based on who deals more damage or healing.
Only numbers matter and you are not able to even point top 10 plays of weekly AWC. These are the problems of the arena. Gameplay is boring, gearing broken and balance is non existing due to prunning and homogenisation of specs.
Also Jito is the one who defended Legion prunning and said it’s good for the game. This only should make his feedback irrelevant in your eyea. Maybe you forgot it but I remember it very well.
Love playing devils advocate because it actually gets decent responses rather than BS.
You can give feedback from any level of experience, because the game is catered to all levels of experience and game play. I hate that it’s that way, Blizzard are actually going more down the route of catering for the lowest end of the scale because then they cover everyone rather than cater for the highest and cut a large part of their potential audience out - Classic will show how bad the situations got, everyone will try and I bet 75% quit because it’s too long / got to go too much thinking for yourself… Rather than spoon fed retail.
And like spoon fed questing, Jito wants to be spoon fed arena… Even if they did bring in AI 3s… Do you honestly think it would prepare you for a human opponent who thinks for themself and adapts to your playstyle? No it wouldn’t. Yeah you might learn a bit of positioning and stuff… But that’s what 0-1500 is for because you can’t lose CR… But if they did introduce it, and it did get a higher level of participation in PVP, then cool… I’m not gunna do it but it makes the PVP community large as a whole. Why is that bad?
Yeah, there’s obviously not going to be a round of applause if you float the idea of removing something that some players enjoy doing.
But like I said before, I struggle to weave 2v2 into any Arena reward design.
I think it’s telling that Blizzard - a long time ago - already removed the possibility of becoming Gladiator in 2v2. And the community seemed - and still seems - cool with that decision.
So the recognition that it’s not exactly a balanced playground is there.
And at least for me it’s difficult to figure out a way to weave powerful rewards into that gameplay format, when those rewards aren’t likely to be given out the way they are intended.
There’s probably a solution that I just can’t see. Or maybe my ideas are all wrong and ought to be re-thought with 2v2 in mind. I don’t know.
Would people do 2v2 is it didn’t really give them any rewards at all? Isn’t it just like Skirmish games then? Is rating desirable if it doesn’t translate to a cool mount to transmog or title?
I dunno if they would, but why not giving out some of the rewards and the possibility to also cap via 2s.
The point is: most (if not all) arena player also play 2s from time to time and there were expansions where you got nothing out of 2s, just cap. Not a single title, actually nothing, only conquest points - and people still played it (a lot).
So no idea if they would play it sooo much without anything, but they would with just some reward and rating system. Because PvP (arena) is mostly about fun due competition - our reward is rating and title/mounts at the end of the season!
Sure, we also wanna feel some kind of progression during the season (gear for example) - just a reason to keep playing - but as I’ve said, it’s mostly about fun and competition.
Again, if Jito’s ideas and thoughts and messages are that dumb or foolish, it is in your best interest to let him spout them on the forums so people can see what a fool he is. You know this.
And yet, you advocate to shut him up. Why’s that?
Do you believe people who have been playing for a long time don’t already have all Vicious mounts ? And there’s nothing more to gather in 2s. No glad mount, no glad title, no r1 title. They are just a way to practise and or have fun, and the rating acts as a way to sort out people and make good players fight against good players so they can have enoyable and interesting games. Do you think a 3k exp person would have fun playing all day long in a skirm system in which he wins under 30s each time ? Or would he have more fun fighting only other 3k people who are on his level so it’s not onesided and dumb to play and watch ?
No offense but I don’t understand how you can have the pretention to type out such an arena design if you can’t see the use of rating. It’s the core of wow arena. If you want to play a game that is not WoW because you aren’t understanding it, feel free to look for another game instead of trying to change this one into your wish.
I was actually thinking of other games.
Because WoW Arena has 2 ratings.
There’s your player rating - which only exists for the sake of determining rewards.
Then there’s the match-making-rating. This is the one that ensures that you play against similar-skilled opponents.
Overwatch has Quick Play. Heroes of the Storm has Unrated. And so on.
These all have a MMR running under the hood. But there’s no player rating, and there’s no lure of fancy rewards or anything.
WoW has its Skirmishes, which are essentually Unrated Arena. But there’s no MMR running under the hood, so you face completely random opponents.
Hence my question: If 2v2 didn’t have player rating, but preserved the MMR, would it appeal?
Yes, well, it’s a bit like this: 2v2 isn’t exactly balanced enough to provide the top prestige rewards on par with 3v3. Furthermore, if 2v2 does provide the exact same stuff as 3v3, few people will play 3v3 which is the more balanced mode, and the competitive aspect would suffer. However, where I think you are mistaken is that you consider the gear as a top reward. It is not, it’s the seasonal prestige gladiator mount and gladiator and rank 1 titles (the other titles as well, but less so). Gear comes below that, even the best gear there is still is below the prestige rewards I outlined.
Keeping this in mind, there is no problem if gear can be obtained through 2s as well as through 3s, just as you can do now and could do since ever. If there is something to be done to make 3s more efficient, one simple fix is to make 3s award something like 3x or even 4x the amount of conquest per win that 2s do, to an extent where capping in 2s would require some 30-40 wins, but capping in 3s would require 10 wins.
People do skirmishes and they don’t award anything already. 
So I guess that’s where the answer lies. But rating is desirable indeed. The problem with skirmishes is that you can’t actually skirmish at your own level. If you are a lower skill player, you will meet vastly superior opponents sometimes, that will simply wipe the floor with you in a few seconds. If you are a high end player, you will meet many times opponents at such a skill gap away from you that they will be less challenging than the first trash pack in a mythic+ dungeon. Rating helps with that problem.
Trust me, 2s work reasonably well as they are, they don’t require sweeping changes, aside from designing the classes better, but that’s a completely different issue.
The bigger problems in your idea are, I think, those I have outlined previously.
A lot less simply because MMR is hidden.
One of the reasons why consolidation around a single format seems like the more harmoneous long-term solution to me. 
But of course, short-term it’s far from ideal.
If I had a time machine and could tell Blizzard something during the initial Arena development, it would definitely be to only have 3v3 - not 2v2 and not 5v5. Man they could have saved themselves a lot of headaches. 
I don’t know. I think in order to be driven by the prospect of a Gladiator mount or an Elite Set appearance, you kind of need to have a rating that’s near that level of play in the first place.
The vast majority of people who set foot in Arena never climb above 1500. For them, there is almost only gear that acts as a carrot. The Seasonal mount and such don’t amount to much. They get way too overshadowed by all that PvE has to offer.
I kind of want players to be able to get amazing and powerful gear from doing PvP and Arena. But like I said, it’s difficult to work within a space where you have vendors, MMR that ensures a decent win-ratio, a predictable currency income, and an imbalanced gameplay format, and not have that coctail result in a terribly broken reward system.
Overwatchs quickplay MMR imo is completely and utterly broken. I think it is VERY hard to change it. I used to play Overwatch a lot, around diamond/masters level but I mostly played quickplay. My quickplay MMR was around 4kish and I only did Competitive to get the golden reward. I could come back after a year or some months or whatever and no matter how badly I played, I would end up at least 3k.
Now I wanted to play casually and relearn the game a bit or just have some fun and…its impossible because my MMR is so high and it wont lower without playing a significant number of games.
Apart from the fact they ruined class design, that’s one reason I basically stopped playing overwatch. The MMR system in QP should be resettable and it isn’t. its QP ffs, it shouldn’t matter if I can boost it back up.
They also screwed up balance so bad 0/3/3 became the best comp in the game and noskill classes were introduced to combat genji/tracer. Admittedly tracers design is so OP in an FPS but making such lowskill trash to combat it is stupid. Which shows, cos they’ve now forced 2/2/2 in OWL as evidence they have broken balance so much they cant fix it without just forcing 2/2/2.