Djfarmville explained very well why its not time wasted in vain. You learned something, maybe spent time with people you care about… or just in general played the game.
Did not get a nice reward in the end. But who cares? You played the game.
Also, just as a side-note: Same idea applies to many other things in life. The fact that WoW is a game does not change that.
There. His quote. Beautifully expressed.
I don’t really agree with Djfarmville’s take on this.
Me and my friends also do our best to time that key. Meaning, we try to understand what we did wrong, what we could’ve improved, we watch people that do really high-end keys, seek advice, try to do higher DPS etc.
Its not a neccesity that you go 1 step back and re-do the level you already did to improve yourself or learn from your mistakes. In fact, I would argue that going back would be worse because its already a difficulity you beat, meaning, its not pushing you to learn and improve.
Anywho, at the end of the day, our goal is to have fun and beat a certain difficulity. Its like trying to kill a boss in Elden Ring. You failed? Learn from your mistakes and give it another go.
But depleting a key means; you failed? Well, you may have a shot with this boss again but first you gotta go back, kill the boss you killed, and then by 1/8 chance you may get to tackle down this boss again.
So IMO depleting a key and going back and completing a run you already did so have no meaning.
What you say is right. It is a bummer.
I once had a rock climber teacher, and he said that the best way to train a rock climbing route is not to do the hardest thing you can find and try again and again until you stop falling and make it.
He said: Train the routes that you can barely finish with the last bit of strength with out falling.
And I think is a neat alegory to M+ because they share that in common: The point is to complete every step of the route with out falling. And when those get easy, move on to harder things. And if you fall, move to easier things. Always there… on the edge of falling…
And that is why, its better and more efficient to repeat the route at a lower level. Hence, depletes.
I think it depends somewhat on what you’re failing on.
If you’re stuck on mechanics on a particular boss, there are definite benefits to treating it like a progression raid boss and wiping on it again and again and again until you get the mechanics down (although you don’t need to remove key depletion to do that - just keep trying until you kill it). I can think of a number of bosses I’ve done that on over the years, and those bosses (and associated dungeons) have gone on to become favourites.
If the fails are spread all over the dungeon, I agree it’s better to practise on a lower key level, though.
This is exactly what you do. If you know you will deplete the key, the best thing you can do is practice what is left of the key so that you can execute it better.
Kind of. There is a difference between competing difficulty, or time. In other words: compete for hardest M+ level, or compete who finishes the M+ fastest.
If in M+ there was only 1 difficulty. And the goal was to see who finishes faster then wiping over and over again on the same thing is the way to go. Like Raiding (RTWF, the list of 100 guilds to kill endboss in Mythic, ect…).
If the goal is to see what is the highest key level you can achieve, then wiping a 1000 times on the same thing defeats the purpose. Because given enough wipes, everyone can and will do a 30. It will just reward those with the most patience not the best skill.
And that is why we need depleates.
The thing is if they would make m+ like this it would become super boring, something has to be at stake imo when you run a key.
I mean… Literally speaking, your most important thing is at stake: time.
There is nothing more valuable than one’s free time, at least in my opinion. I tried a +20, failed. 60 minutes that led to a failure. No score gain.
This becomes worse once you realize that now you need to do a +19 and only by 1/8 chance you may give another go at what you’ve failed against.
I simply see no proper reasoning behind key deplete and Uda’s example of climbing has absolutely no relevance. Climbing is about strength and technique. If you lack the strength and technique for a certain route, no matter how many times you try, you are not going to finish that route.
That is not the case in M+. For that to apply to M+, one would have to assume your iLVL is lower relative to the key you are trying to complete. Only then skill becomes an issue. I failed my latest run by 24 seconds at Everbloom +20, because we wiped at the 3rd boss. We watched a few videos and figured out what we’ve done as a mistake.
But guess what, when we did the +19 Everbloom it upgraded to DT +20, which is already a key we completed. And you know what? We left it there that night 'cuz we see no point in completing something we already did so.
If this deplete did not exist, we would happily continue trying to complete Everbloom +20.
I will quote myself:
Thats why you need depletes. Because if you want to learn how to do a EV+20, you will find useful certain lessons from AD for example. If you wan bate the spiny boyz of AD you will find the ones in EV easier. If you manage to do Yazma clean, you will find other bosses much easier.
If you tank manages to survive DHT tree boss, he will survive many, many more bosses at much higher level.
Blizz is doing you a favor by forcing you to do other keys and not be all day wiping again and again to 1 boss in EB.
Also the ping-pong of pushing keys its what it is… last week we got 4 RISE… out of 5 people. And we did RISE like 8 times because we did not stop getting again and again the same key. It was weird.
And then, this week… RISE 24 was an EZ blast. Because we practiced so much last week… Tomorrow, we try 25. Lets see how that ends up.
But if you got an DT+20 that you already timed, try to time it even FASTER than you did last time. Because that is exactly what you will need to do to time DT in +23 or whatever.
You have to think that pushing M+ is a SEASON thing. You have 3-4 months to learn EB20… And all the other ones you also need to learn… 
Enjoy the journey ! 
Sorry but this makes no sense. If I lack the maximum skill threshold to complete a key, I don’t see how patience or trying it 1000 times is going to help me time that key? I am a bit loss.
Perhaps I am somehow misunderstood and you think I am asking for the removal of the timer; I am not. I am asking for the removal of the key deplete.
To me this just doesn’t make sense. In high keys to fail due to not realizing the importance of a certain mechanic or because you followed a more non-ideal path. These are issues specific to the key itself. Not sure why doing another dungeon with different mechanics would help.
It is what it is, true, and I am just being critical of it.
Given enough time, a group of monkeys with typewriters could produce the complete works of Shakespeare.
The effect is the same. Removal of depletion would give you infinite time to complete it (ultimately in time).
Doing mechanics in all keys activates the same neural pathways. Repeatedly activating those pathways makes them quicker and more efficient to activate in the future, hence making all mechanics easier. (There’s a big overlap with raid mechanics as well, although these typically don’t have the focus on reaction speed that M+ has.)
I don’t think you understand what you are saying. Muscle memory does not apply to a very specific and new task or challange that you face.
Its like playing an instrument with 3 strings and you suddenly add a 4th one and expect muscle memory to do all the work. Thats not how it works.
I’m not talking about muscle memory but about neural pathways in the brain. (I’m a psychologist, by the way. I know how learning works.)
I don’t care if you are a psychologist or not.
What you are saying, in the face of improving in M+ against certain mechanics we fail at, is irrelevant.
In fact, what you are saying supports my claim, i.e., going for the same boss over and over again.
Me dodging a purple area under my feet even if done a thousand times will not help me at a different mechanic occuring in the 3rd boss of Everbloom.
Given enough time, a group of monkeys with typewriters could produce the complete works of Shakespeare.
Give me all the time in the world, I am not going to be a Tolkien or GRR Martin when it comes to writing epic-fantasy books. You can’t replicate unique skills with training. You have a threshold.
If you are only interested in the fruits of the labor and not the actual labor itself then you are going to create a toxic enviroment that is going to make you frustrated and m+ is no different from this.
Like i told the other guy its very simply its about the journey, not the goal. Focus on the dungeon run whether it was a deplete or intime, not on the score or the gear you gained. And if you simply cant bring yourself to think like that then maybe you should consider stop pushing keys, or atleast stop trying to revamp the entire system that you dont even like from the start.
I am not certain what exactly you are even trying to achieve here.
What I enjoy and how I enjoy the way I play the game is not even relevant on what I am saying. It will be relevant to what you are saying. You believe that depleting keys and doing something you’ve already done may have a purpose, which is, just enjoying doing m+.
Sure, thats a valid point but only for you. Not for me. Your suggestion is not a right or wrong thing, you are just saying what you enjoy. Expecting or telling me to enjoy M+ in the same way you do is a bit bizarre. People enjoy things in their own unique way.
My point is, I enjoy pushing the score, trying new challanges. Thats why I absolutely love games like Elden Ring. But killing the same boss, with same properties, with same items, with same character, is meaningless and not enjoyable for me. I would rather learn, improve and beat the challange I am struggling with.
Hence, I don’t like the fact that game punishes me so brutally for failing a key. It pushes me back from +20 to +19, then, it gives me a 1/8 chance to do the same challange again. To me thats just bonkers. To me there is no point in that. In my mind game is just artifically wasting my time.
I am free to voice my opinion on the forums. Remind you that I replied to OP, voiced my opinion and then others challanged it, which I welcome. But to say what you are saying is a bit meh.
tl;dr “I don’t want to hear facts that disagree with my opinion.”
You are 100% free to voice your opinion that “facts are wrong” on the forums. Other people are also 100% free to voice their opinion that you don’t know what you’re talking about and should just keep quiet.
No, I did read it, its just not relevant to my situation. What you said is not wrong factualy speaking, its just irrelevant to my situation.
I claim that you like pushing score because there is something at stake. If there was nothing at stake, you would feel less satisfaction.
Imagine a piano. You can practice 1 song over and over again. And in the end, it will sound like you know how to play the piano, like a pro…
But you don’t know how to play the piano. Because if I show you a music script for some other song you cant even read the strophe.
See what I mean by this? It rewards those with most patience to practice, instead of those who can read a strophe and understand ANY song from scratch (skill).
You fail key mechanics by not having the reflexes or appropriate UI. Not by “not knowing”.
EXAMPLE: A dangerous AoE cast goes off. WIPE. Maybe, you were not fast enough at clicking the mob and interrupting. Maybe, you did not have enough awareness to see a mob in a corner of the screen casting… many reasons… but “not knowing” is not one of them.
SO, TLDR: you had awareness, you just did not have ENOUGH of it. You have reflexes, just not ENOUGH. Thats what you need to practice.
Awarness and reflexes. One way to do it, its to go to other places with much harder mechanics to execute. And then, when you return to the easier but “similar” places you will execute them better.
And sometimes its just UI. Get a better one. That is also something to improve.
Makes total sense.
My time is at stake. The most valuable thing for me. Other than that… Idk? Repair costs i guess.
Okay? Cool, let me practice that 1 song over and over again? I am completely lost how you are not seeing the very example you give is contradicting yourself? You want to learn and play a specific complex song in Piano and lets say this song is called A, you will practice THAT song, not other songs called B, C, D, E.
Bold of you to claim I don’t know how to play M+, WoW or my toon… Have you watched me and my friend’s gameplay or something? Your example would only make sense if we were disgustingly bad at the game and missed kicks, didn’t move out of pools etc.
We wiped at the 3rd boss of Everbloom because we didn’t know how to move around when it pulled us. We watched, learnt, would go for another try but we can’t 'cuz the game won’t allow us.
This is a specific mechanic. You learn it, play in accordance and beat the boss, thats all. Your examples to playing piano etc. are VERY irrelevant.
No, we literally failed because we did not now how to move around at a certain mechanic. There is nothing to kick, not a matter of rexlexes, has absolutely nothing to do with our UI, at all.
No, it wasn’t a case of awareness, we simply did not know what we had to do.
My UI is more than enough. Again, please stop assuming random stuff like they are facts.
And thats why you like M+. Like I said. Something at stake.
You are taking the example to literal, trying desperately to find little semantics to prove your point. And also personal.
But lets have it your way. So you had trouble in the mage boss of EB? So did I. And I will give you MY example, so that you dont get confused.
MY example: I can heal EB24 with my eyes closed. Im sick of doing that place in 24 to be honest.
So… I go to EB25. And the 3rd boss literally destroys the party. Like Massive damage. What happened? Turns out that 25 is the limit where 3 cinder-bolts kill you, instead of 4.
It required extensive research from my part and coordination from the party to pull it off.
I practice the boss in 24. 5 times. I feel “ready”. I go back to EB25… and… we wipe to the 2nd boss because tank was sleepy (was 3am after all) and did not pop a defensive to the charge and died.
You see? You HAVE yo execute it right. The whole dungeon. You cant just reduce things to 1 boss.
If this is what you really want to do… then it means pushing other dungeons as well. And practicing. A LOT.
You already did a 22? well If you want to do it in 23 you have to do it BETTER if you want to time it.
What you want is to make the whole concept of M+ easy and irrelevant. And your frustration of not wanting to accept the risk of failure (your time) means your not serious about it.
If you time the key its a moment of celebration ! Because you overcame all the challenges, for 40 minutes non stop. But if you did not overcome them… then … L2P basically.
Unrelated, but before giving other lessons on how to play M+ or completely disregard coments from other people, then at least have the guts to post with your main. Not with this 500 rio score alt.
Give me reasons to take you seriously please.
Im far from the best player around. But my toon is public. You can look at my rio, the dungeons I did, ect… and you know if im full of BS or if I might have a point.
And it works both ways. If you happen to do 27s… well… you might have a point. And first thing would be to ask you if I can speak to your healer about that 3rd boss of EB and how he does it. Cause its really getting me on my nerves.