Mage vs Warlock

Then I’d definitely go with mage. People generally like having a mage in their group at all levels. It brings lust, int buff, it’s very mobile, has better defensives, an immunity, better group utility, decurse, and healers love mage food. Warlock doesn’t really bring much besides healthstones, a clunky CR and the odd gate skip here and there, it’s not very mobile, and the pet AI can get annoying.

So even as a long time warlock main, I recommend mage.

As a cherry on top, mage also comes with a lot more conveniences outside of dungeons and raids.

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Why do you say that Frost is harder then Fire? I was watching some guides and did class trial to see how that rotation works, it so bad. And those combust windows gave me panic attacks :slight_smile:

Playing around those windows requires good knowledge and also participation to set your main CDs when it is needed. That’s why I think that Fire is very hard.

Frost is easier than fire.

It doesnt need to, its not that hard.

Its more a question about group coordination at this point. Fire usually is better with a group you can communicate and play around with.

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For raiding there is always a spot for at least one warlock, even when they are lagging behind.

However at the same time Affliction is in bit of a mess and destro is falling behind leaving Demonology in which you suffer from hyperimposis.

Ishayo said said that about Frost vs Fire comparison.

I know its a repeatable pattern that you have to learn/master, just spamming buttons and trying to do it properly felt like I am panic :slight_smile:

i like warlock more but mage brings more to the table for the most content.

just a gameplay thing, you have to think about it yourself if you want to buttonsmash or have micromanagement or complexity , whatever

I really see no reason to argue about that because more than likely it’s just going to scare you, but if you want to know it’s because the rotation has a lot of complicated hidden garbage all over it - but before I go on it’s important to note that you don’t need to know most of this stuff to get started.

To get started, what you have to know is you want to proc shatters, and shatters are proceed by hitting enemies with affected by Winter’s Chill or who are frozen in place (slow isn’t enough, other roots don’t work) with frost spells like frostbolt, ice lance, and glacial spike. Since frostbolt does paltry damage, make sure to save one flurry charge until you have 4 or 5 icicles so you can frostbolt → flurry → glacial (4 icicles) or glacial → flurry → ice lance 2x (5 icicles). If the enemy mob can be frozen, you can ice nova it instead of using flurry, or you can use your pet nova (freeze) or frost nova or ice nova.

For AoE you’ll get far by waiting for mobs to gather up, going near melee, orb, blizzard, comet storm, ice nova just before it lands, cone of cold, orb, blizzard, comet storm, and then use blizzard and orb whenever available and filling with all the ice lances you get from the orbs being there.


But if you wanna know how it gets more complicated? Here you go:

Things like:
You want to shatter.
That requires enemies to be frozen.
Some mobs are immune to being frozen.
So you must use Winter’s Chill

Flurry applies Winter’s Chill - three times in rapid succession, each time refreshing to 2 stacks. This is important, because it means you get a 3rd shatter if you use it immediately after a cast instead of on its own.
Frostbolt, Ice Lance, and Glacial Spike benefit from it but take a charge from it
Comet Storm, Blizzard, Frozen Orb, and Ray of Frost also benefit from it but do NOT take a charge from it
Therefore, never use Ray or Comet Storm if Winter’s Chill is not on them. Comet Storm is also good in single target (glacial → flurry → comet storm → ice lance → ice lance)
But they all do break roots
Other players can break roots, too - potentially before your spells hit, so try to time it. +
For example having around a 0.3s time where you’re not casting for comet storm → ice nova is quite a common move, but remember not to do that if you have winter’s chill on them
In cases where you must AoE many mobs that can be frozen and one which cannot, use flurry to get winter’s chill on unfreezeable target and ice nova to freeze freezable target so you get shatters on them all
Roots and slows can mess with affixes - especially sanguine, so sometimes hold casts. Conversily, your rampant slowing and rooting is useful on spiteful weeks

You can root mobs with 4 different abilities - Frost Nova, Ice Nova, Freeze, and potentially Cone of Cold (nobody specs this, but it exists). And then there’s the passive Frostbite but nobody picks that either
Cone of Cold also applies Winter’s Chill to all targets - so you can Comet Storm on it, which is very nice as it also resets comet storm (and frozen orb) - but if you ice lance anything while they are falling the winter’s chill goes away and you will not shatter after all

At least one flurry must be used before you use Icy Veins, as Icy Veins immediately generates a charge due to the water elemental that spawns
You cannot apply flurry to someone who is immune to magic due to an anti-magic shield, but you can use the charges if they’re already on the target to deal enough damage to break through the immunity. How does that even work? Heck if I know.

You can continue casting even when you shimmer
If you use Ice Floes when the cast is less than half done, it will be consumed by the end of the cast
If you use Ice Floes when the cast is more than half done, it will not and you have it for another cast
When you Ice Floes, it does not immediately activate - it waits for a roundtrip to the server, which is usually ~200ms. Btw you gotta dodge that swirly still! It feels a little more tight than it should

Splitting Ice cannot split into totems or things like the tree roots in Darkheart Thicket (2nd boss), but you can attack the roots and have Splitting Ice cleave onto the boss.
The rules for when Splitting Ice applies are seriously unintuitive, but you’ll catch it eventually
Splitting Ice checks whether the target it hits is frozen even though the tooltips for the abilities that are split clearly state that it checks your target, not the target the spell hits

Blizzard lowers the cooldown of frozen orb - that’s simple. Make sure you place it where the tank will move all the mobs! This is more tricky than it sounds lol

You cannot benefit from other mages’ winter’s chill, but you can benefit from shattering into their roots.

Frost requires some pretty peculiar macros for pet control much other weirdness
For example, a water elemental doing a waterbolt cast on the target you just attacked may finish it just before your polymorph lands. The waterbolt then lands a splitsecond later, breaking the polymorph
Water Elemental may run off or you may run from it, making it unavailable for casting your freeze

And then there’s a bunch of other stuff but fire suffers this too to the same degree frost does.

Some of these also hit fire, but less. Fire has no pet, the weird rules with splitting ice don’t apply (ignite spreads onto the roots on the tree boss in Darkheart for example), you have to with hardcast pyro less often than you have to glacial, and glacial has almost as long a cast time, and in general you do far more instant casts.

People have a really nasty tendency to think frost is nothing more than an ice lance machine. They have no idea…


BUT - you start simple and you work your way up. Please don’t get scared off by that, it starts off a lot simpler than that:

All I’m saying pick whichever one you like, I guarantee you’ll be able to learn it, but it will take time. If you want something that feels reasonable to learn though, don’t pick arcane. A new build is coming around that focuses a lot on orbs because people are tired of the standard complicated rotation, but for now you’re better off just avoiding all that.

Frost or fire.

Here’s some of my macros so you don’t have to worry about figuring all that out:
Water Elemental summon and control + nova on the same bind:

#showtooltip
/dismount [nopet]
/cast [@pet,dead][nopet]Icy Veins;Freeze
/use [nopet] Balefire Branch
/petfollow
/stopmacro [nomod:alt]
/petpassive
/run PetDismiss()

Replace Balefire Branch with the on-use trinket you use or remove it completely
Hre you can hold down alt to dismiss the pet, say if you need to jump down a cliff just after popping CD’s and don’t want it running around the place and pulling everything along its path

Securely enter Ice Block and only leave it when holding down shift (so you can spam it without concern!)

#showtooltip Ice Block
/cancelaura [mod:shift]Ice Block
/stopmacro [mod:shift]
/cqs
/stopcasting
/cast !Ice Block

If you want to place AoE effects with your cursor instead of having to press them and then use the cursor to place them, here’s how you do that:

#showtooltip
/cast [@cursor] Blizzard

Cast polymorph, making sure your water ele won’t break it - also useful if you want it to come over - it won’t cast poly if you’re moving or casting something els while pressing it:

#showtooltip
/cqs
/cancelaura Ice Block
/petfollow
/use Polymorph(Sheep)

Make sure your water elemental assists you and remembers to cast Water Jet (will do automatically on target it’s on) - also, you’re ready to come out and attack the enemy, so let go of all the immunities that might prevent that
Ele will attack its old target if it exists unless you press ctrl, in which case it will attack yours

#showtooltip
/dismount
/cancelaura ice block
/cancelaura invisibility
/cancelaura slow fall
/petattack [nomod:ctrl,@pettarget,noexists][mod:ctrl][]
/cast [spec:3]Frostbolt

Hopefully you can benefit - let me know if you have any questions. I’ve played both frost and fire to 3k rating. I’m no Manather though - but remember: Take things one step at a time.

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Wow, this is way more then I expected and a lot of effort to explain and summarize the most important things about class/spec, how it works and how you should play it.

Thank you very much for this, I really appreciate it. I need to read it few more times and then bookmark it somewhere as a reminder and an awesome frost guide. :slight_smile:

Hur Hur Hur

I went with Warlock mostly because of the theme and the transmogs.

No problem, but keep in mind that post was basically a rant and I’ve already noticed a small amount of typos and minor mistakes (I’ve fixed those I found). Cause you know, someone asked me how frost could possibly be more than an ez-mode ice lance machine, so… there they go.

If you want a proper frost guide, look at Manather on YouTube or look at Icy Veins. But the general concepts I wrote are actually fairly accurate. It’s all about shattering stuff, especially glacial spike and anything that doesn’t consume the winter’s chill debuffs.

I also have some weakauras most of which I’ve made. A lot of the weakauras you find out there are a grid of icons - almost like a replacement for your action bar.

If you prefer something a little more power-auras-ish, here’s a group for you.

Flurry availability. Only shows in combat. Tracks how many you have. Changes colour if you proc Brain Freeze (it changes some details about how it works, don’t worry about it, just that it comes back)

!WA:2!fw1ZVTrXx8yzqfC5qIBjIwvQCAvdTiuAAuAuliA)611MuIJTZA30Yfwp7UJ3DAxp7OzM1jUsiuTqIEaU4)e8zeh8Fc5g3gzH(EKdrCGlCj3bXBM1jTbKCpyVZpE)4Z79(8EtMk57M3pV)llmsg71dZfKy6hK57dpsI3xMWXpMJyBh7JzNVu1IB3OvDRQflTvXh8Gh26H7w22lokM)LzZMDZ7)hF0hwyU5MJTGpr4XXsSdpwIKG9(9557xVthbw6)UtqjYWyEDM(cro3UeopMhY7NkqMXiQhCFJycv6wQCTwLTT3J4ld)LHUryQVglRbUFehhawOvFgMpfQwrXi)ES8jcSJxesiCquFhbd7fE4P3VOD3KijzJx0(BB)nTDLiWYYfvNp3iJUXDDrY22gD0NAz0XSG8CSEHRj0WHCKNjo2WwirCzolcLiZ52b(icZPM3D91V7635odKCsqaKC)6L5tx(Y33wcA)mUxiIhGfSf0UoatXCIxZW49QtBp5uBhjGpfJ2d1xytrDXICJ8XUjD6yYbBwUAJkpQkB(P2ZjgoejJ55V3eTL54Uiav0Gq1vZV6HIexCpiOBc6t2FStPInB50Svr7whQLgc4OOsXjuzOLemVT5aBJkSlukooYpEpAHg84aowikC9M67Vb7CALX7dzLutudWz7jCmkQ5XBFNFUYKtCH5(bMLp0xKBSj9NgaTpbJn4yaJ2nBuUAvReib7YIq9X8HAPnjX2dfVM5hcWonjNBz1s7QUPnkHJw7a9)g5i(Il6ER7U66RVH6tvF2rGDkRXCZuC0wDD1nu3l3yGi)0ekuH7Hxdr7Zwazw3k14AM4pn3rapfZPOODt7D(XXD4amAc4sIYouGJ6y4YQZEfIVBLOeoV)qeL010zSH6sa(CzqselhGrcSUyArJP4j(aC1Y4OlaCb2lM6luBz1b5Jpqlk4dmnqgEglDPfSJAlvv12QAQ6QTSzjrcSANZOU8)6gvd4uBuele1i7QRCBGfjqsTZWHdEvlRl4VoKGChL2qwrhvAW52SKD5Y1gbvhBtlO4JxuDZjWwxOseWbsJ)lxIvq3u6y(RtmhIwNBTYXutZqJ2SRmdrc881)AZM3CViebeUsMHnzYKjlB53GUWAkfhLogZbOpy)hRNI8IrPDUTGJTQvVwz2Nmdl5J9GcvKduF8i6QB2rgbtN6T59)TlF5)hmYBZ7)N)1FRN9Lnll)RH3VkDM2LMBI5W9I5(6XPdE80fhyoUhyzy0w7jtXa0uctz(8jP59NmDUi7c)hCsNUqTn7QVP0bsidpmfAhZiTk(Ow1zx)nOziXh78CmpoCkGMguzsb)ttessN(QZQUjhOa6ZMMcof83HT0m8ZXHXWtYaS5RWjpVWojiFDFuHwTMzDYLe4qt66I5tVJTqrxxoUhbk11mxiofSooiov5AkwZo8epn6AN4JPeXx71jRQLR0IDJzal0jyWPlA)fyNl1ejYyD3VNHqAve2(QsVP9Vg0(ZU2mmSEGAxh9Ja2uyejFMc)kue6gIjbHYV79gPhMqmpDDXLT9cXEpBd1sV9GEiobbKrl9Bn29qrj4S6xOOGHU4YQFa48))fxSGHZFq(8PC(bmU(XgzF1BnMqt9py5CRLq8hVt3129rR3FVN8f(5f23EL7UYQ579Rp5Fo

Fingers of Frost tracker

!WA:2!nw1ZVTrXxCB5dGmiuIBPQfqvMGAPfHIkjovjhGwVU21bsDmR320WL1ZU7S7oW6zgnZSoXrcHAes0lCX)fG8zehYFbv5VGvwCMd5aN47LC)lH3S7gRevuchS33mVF9zEVpZBk2QYGkEv8Ez1jkM7qSqsy0Rx8NcpwH3vflWBjq8NW8W8R2yJ6pPR1MgBuVXxv)rpADR1FwtXUB67lXQ2VY5vf(4to5e(8EePRaRW2cMcPGOv00LfXeFzPsLA)G)0(KxvOqHPOyvitSjxBGSSZaIqWeHIrzHR4eboa0ynIJf5azIhwIabKcho2jct90WAjajhGOUqW6YiuLtJMDSAAEaH6ZedsZFzNuKGdfi300DFtPcjuLD8juImSSb8rvo5TCQvBTARU2(kbjiaQeVZTf5IV86MkW7Vt4gIeby54yjUNc2qgYNhKTdWuSG42lKTZM0(tp3Yjs4t9ODqJKhjJDWdXuvxb2NSRzVUn3yJd0bipW9nPObyz5XsookQdi)M)wl(C5ATzq5aPyIkFXuTtc8aeGDAq4XWYM7cNVEA)w3R)Sm1l2hY0b2nQ3ZYUNvDtRJ0UMg)gSyQkm59RCpZuB53ObJf5X2HwTRGfiWsz17KgX7YVI2lSof2ZWw)PcmkQ3zG60zXov)(Ym4ilBed1yhEeAewyOG2QjcALlDO()uJiEY3ZSwTvQvtxCTtl39HEUdG)uAq7MB0T1t3yma5SMsz(86g6qSv2AnD4xlCmqcWckk6zzC5F2efXdrDlDVfxzSeh5NstsMBbI3sTyTgJOKmAY9tU6Zsw2HdNASAFmsI1P1GYO4PEAAhyJTg5cj2Lr9KhQTPNsGPbQW3iPUHpYdBO7iqCsQNyK0i5rjntAb6m5XrsCY7(6AsE8b(cOwbbcPqLm3H4PcB)WTlu4xkuO0(ZUeTumX7GrRU6qFRVz7DDw(4msFlTVAG60RHzZMDMa9DZ07oYp5Ajlpfw6avYab0Q9E5c8k6Bt2Yqe0LFE2LTs8BKUz6Fz3ASL5cjngpt3c3sYN7mU3i9wDXIflXV9RfGpBXt5SbUEA2nLIJYgQyd8rS3w6Z5lMKD10c22OZMDAY)0lisEyxOxfzdTixIU3wAsQHzJxA)G)4M38HWSL2p4)9))7QGqPsN74UD2X9dkWV1fKeKJJapKONxmn3cQkLj0rZeMTvpYE4pFAwtiVqw8FPqsNvi5F0LvKqsv4rza(uEQr9NATj)oxINHepS9Eyblmhq5h1IhM6Z3glve)rjZLSSa4d69YlmNd()vXlSWOVQpWwpEYKctleJNvk4Z1sq2R6xhJ80C4QwwxyB0HeytJh4Gf564ZxFwrVtQc55W3PNgE1liQPKG(zh4Ha7aEHOFoD9mppyAU(JBBXx4skOWV(87(FILypaT788RKLOyftpmXnLCBuhwY)WlikNsnYyv7WeE6xB3FRCbNqmjiu9JV9e98gs2tLgrmKN)rUrijadQNEAR71mhehPi3)f9)H(FFFhfcEEuDTK9lZRK(4Y5mo0i1fqRzQcTKHeOZAbhiv(KGYvKMRS4AlEVkd)9N)p

Ice floes feather - puts three feathers next to one another near the middle of the screen if you spec ice floes and you are in combat. Each leaf represents a charge of the ability and a progress bar for when it comes back, and if you have a charge active a leaf becomes a bright green. It can be really hard to track if that thing is active and ready somehow, idk

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Icicles tracker. Looks like 5 combo points. The middle one becomes big and orange when glacial spike is ready

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1 Like

I think all 3 specs could do with some work as they are very clunky , still fun to play but they needs change’s tbh

This is what the OP said and all of you are going off on a tangent saying do this and do that it might scare them off.

All i can say is try the class trail and go from there get a feel for each spec and class :slight_smile:

I have both a mage and an affli lock - I like the lock too but mage is just more mobile and safer to play. Lock is fun with all the dotting but it really lacks mobility. As a mage I can just run with ice floes, blink etc. and lock is just… uh? Idk too stationary. Also Ice block/cold is OP while lock’s defensives aren’t quite great in comparison. The advantage of locks is they can self heal nicely but still.

In PvP - mage is probably better esp. in 2xdd comp in 2v2.

All stats from PvP show that lock is better, and most mages actually give up ice block to take a defensive that simply provides damage reduction, similar to what locks have.

The OP mages problem is definitely a M+ thing, and only at the top. Mages are great however and won’t stop you in your tracks, but stop writing they outshine warlocks everywhere. It’s not true and you risk distracting the OP with a very small detail to her that isn’t even entirely true.

I can probably count the amount of mages i’ve faced in 2v2 on one hand while i’d need more than 2 hands when it comes to warlocks. That and warlocks will always have at least one spot on a raid progress team due to gateway, sometimes an encounter even requires two if the group needs to be split up.

So it’s indeed only in M+ that mages tend to be more represented and even then demo warlocks aren’t exactly bad.

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Pick whichever you enjoy most.

It doesn’t matter that you consider yourself ‘not very skilled’. If it’s the class you want to stick with for a long time, you will become skilled through practice.

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Warlock is the class that might get invited in raid groups just because they can summon others.

This is something that I was trying with Resto/Ele Shaman for few years, didn’t work out at all. For Resto I learned some things but even though I like to heal usually in games find it very stressuful and not rewarding at all. For Ele, it was confusing and I was underperforming even while I was doing my rotation good, it didn’t fit me at all, somehow spec was too spammy, proc dependent and melee distanced for usage of certain spells like Cone of Cold, Dragon Breath, etc., and this is what I am afraid that I will not like about Frost and Fire Mage since I consider it similar to Elemental.

I made class trials for both, checking some guides to see how things work.

A lot of the time when something feels awkward, difficult, or unintuitive, that’s because it is.

This is why everybody is installing 3½ billon addons. The game can be extremely difficult to play without them and much of the time these stressful annoyances can simply be fixed with a HUD (read: WeakAura) or macros.

For example in the default UI fire mages can’t easily track their Firemind and Sun King’s Blessing buffs. You have to look through 30+ icons to find it in the middle of combat. It’s unrealistic and stupid. And then you can’t play it, and then you quit/complain out of frustration, when in fact the community solved what Blizzard didn’t…

When you say too many procs and too much spam I’m pretty sure I know what the problem is… and it’s UI issues. I swear, these sorts of things have be made better by Blizzard if they want to keep them.

1 Like

Agree, too many things on way too many sides is going on. I made both classes as trials and will try them and see how the rotations look like.

1 Like