Your only aim is posting contrarian garbage without trying to understand what I’m even saying so good luck with that.
No one is talking about hypotethical spells I personally want to have, but spells that already exist, only you have to choose them over something else, that’s what makes classes incomplete. If you don’t understand the Artifact example then you’re either hopeless or choosing to ignore arguments.
The single biggest issue of BFA class design along with GCD was exactly that, removal of artifact abilities either outright in some cases, or placing them in the talent rows instead of having them baseline like we used to in Legion. That clear enough for you? Or is it another player-made buzzword.
Just cause a spell exists and it’s not baseline it doesn’t mean that you class is incomplete. MoP had strong talents aswell, the casting while moving one for warlocks was game changer, does this mean the class is incomplete without it? a moron would say yes.
Regarding legion artifacts the best illustration would be for tanks, for example paladin lost Eye of Tyr, a dmg reduction 1 min cd. Does this mean that paladins can’t tank anymore because their class is incomplete? obviously not, since mob damage is adjusted based on their mitigation tools, and this goes for all tanks, just cause one tank had a stronger artifact ability it doesn’t mean that tank was weaker in BFA.
The contribution artifact abilities had for your class wasn’t removed, it was replaced.
Funny enough if you like disc now is because they took a lot inspiration from MoP. Imagine they gonna took from you penance instead of this give you nothing back ( burning embers,demo metamorphosis,death siphon,stances for DK,MW perks and list go on…) Is it still subjective?
talking about MoP then you would also talk about how the classes where build, and that means that every class had close to every utility in the game, just slightly different.
the classes where not more complet they where bloated with abilitys and passives, but then the mentality back then was making every class close to the same, with a theme of take the person not the class.
I didn’t and I still enjoyed those fast paced gameplay.
Because they designed classes with those legion systems. All the sudden, they either removed them or moved them as talent, turning those so called “talents” as mandatory choice.
To a degree, some specs got an actual unpruning (I can think of UH DK epidemic and AMZ) and other got quite disapointing treatment (DPS warrior using shields ???)
It’s not a choice when some of those talents used to be baseline and spec can’t properly work without them. Or even if it was not a baseline spell, if a talent has a high pick rate in many situation, then this talent should be baselined, like Destrolock cataclysm.
It was disliked and still is at this day.
It’s not arbitrary since many people are still complaining about Legion pruning.
I’m convoking now ! wink wink
Give us pre legion gameplay !!! Thanks !
You’d be astonished…they actually do, including ion…yeah…
And it was good. Now that utility is being spread…Well, some specs are being brought because they’re bringing utility. Damned if you play a class or spec that does not provide any relevant utility spell like current retribution paladin. I mean, who cares about a bop, sacrifice and immune when warrior provide 5% AP, raid wide CD and an external defensive spell.
MoP talent system was basically cookie cutter builds with little to no variation at all, you had no real choice at all due to how huge the power disparity was, and the only choice you had was in very niche situations.
Don’t get me wrong, I love MoP and it’s by far my favourite expansion alongside wotlk, but the talent system in it was very, very bad.
This is true, and it’s a subjective preference but I definitely prefered that. Classes had a lot of similar utility but they didn’t play the same as each other, and that’s the most important part imo.
The alternative is that now some classes are completely useless in terms of utility while others are near essential. Bloat was definitely there, but they only needed to remove a few redudant spells at the most. Prunning should never had included powerful and impactful spells, and unprunning should have brought those back, like Skull Banner to warriors for example, instead of giving Frostbolt to every mage spec.
You don’t have choice now either, it boils down to AoE/ST 90% of the time. The number of cases where having choice between talents is actually better than having all of those talents baked into the class from the get-go is very very low.
You’re probably talking about Assassination and not Subtlety, Subtlety was super fun but wasn’t hard at all.
I can’t speak for warlock and priest , but I definitely can speak for monk, and yes even monks it was a cookie cutter build with a useless talent row or two.
I do agree, that classes atm feel uncomplete ( even though SL fixed a portion of that ) but that’s not the fault of the talent system.
In WoD, blizzard started a trend of baking abilities into others, massively reducing the complexity of the game, as they wanted to reduce the gap between the skill ceiling and skill floor.
You could double or triple the dps of someone not knowledgeable in their class in MoP, and blizzard obviously didn’t like that.
But you’ve never really had choice at any time in this game other than the choice between being suboptimal or optimal. In every iteration of the game and talent system to date there has always been a clear cut best way.
The illusion of choice might have been a better illusion back then but it was still an illusion.
If we go back to ‘how it was in MOP’ we’d now have a forum full of how all the classes are just a homogenised blob and how there is no uniqueness anymore.
MOP was the ere of ‘bring the player no the class’ mentality from Blizz and pretty much every class had everything.
I wasn’t initially saying that MoP talents offered great choice, maybe I should have clarified better, I was saying that they offered meaningless utility choice that barely made any difference to your output.
I’m saying that was preferable to the talents we have now because MoP’s talents didn’t block you off from having crucial spells, you already had them anyway.
I never claimed we had choice back then, that’s precisely my point. All the “choices” you could take from talents were largely inconsequential because the class already had everything it needed.
Current talents lock off important abilities that are necessary for the class to feel good, so you’re forced to take them which negates the point of it being a talent and not a baseline spell.
And if those crucial spells underperform compared to other passive options, then it’s even worse because your gameplay is more boring, feels less complete, but you’re still required to go that way to remain competitive.
And it was the right mentality as long as classes aren’t literally identical, which they weren’t. There was greater variance in terms of gameplay between specs then than there is now, and FAR more than in say BFA, when half of the specs were the same builder-spender bs.
So we didn’t really gain anything except the arbitrary feeling of uniqueness because your class/spec has that one ability that might be useful in this scenario which immediately gives you advantage over another player regardless of skill. If every class is useful, there is less class stacking and less FOTM rerolling.
Take warriors for example, Skull Banner was an amazing cooldown and provided both utility and value to warriors as a class. What do warriors have now that might incentivize you to ever invite one to M+?
Well, let’s be serious for a moment. I have a lot of unpopular opinions and the true expansion I really hated when it was current is bfa, after 8.2 released.
Most of people are saying Mop is bad for unfair reasons :
-it’s after wrath so it has to be bad.
-Panda lul
The only valid critic is more than 1 year of SoO patch, I agree, this is bad and leads to boredom.
A fellow guild mate told me he hated that design. I openly said I liked Mop specifically for that exact reasons. I mean, ret paladin was easy to get in, but there were a lot of tricks that would translate into bigger dps. I really liked that since it pushed me into diving and researching more about my spec.
It was good design…
Now, the complaints are about some specs bringing stronger utility Tha others specs. For instance, mages, droods and hunters are top dogs because of their utility spells. But what’s the use of a DK or warrior dps into keys? Why is mage’s toolkit better than shamans?