No, it was all the night elves that did that, most notably the Highborne mages and Moonguard - so no, I am not referring to that.
I am referring to what each order of the night elves brings to the race. The arcane ones have always been about progress, development, driving civilization forward, - improvements to QoL, learning etc - form an observational stand point
Meanwhile the Order of the Elune, spirituality brings, with discipline and humility - stuff like that - kinda keeps your high flying civilization grounded and an excellent antidote to hubris and arrogance.
While the druidic - nature reverence lot, they bring balance and harmony - the very cure for addiction it turns out - this is what they generally profess and how we observe them functioning in kaldorei society and civilization.
When anyone or more of these is absent, then they are weakened and off kilter, either sub-optimal or go into error. This was also observed.
However what I meant, is that there is little lore reason for them driving forward with civilization without this group and it’s part of their established lore set too.
Furthermore players like this - who doesn’t like the to see the cool night elf civilization they read about that was so amazing and so magical? they want to see that and they want that… and no, they don’t want the hubris that came at the end, an don’t expect it because all of the night elf story after the sundering has shown how they’ve really reformed in terms of that, even the Shen’dralar Highborne and the nightborne the last remaining culprits, though not as bad as the naga and satyr, also reformed, the rest of the night elven mages who stayed got rid of theirs with the resto f the nelf population in the post sundering gathering. And though they may not have believed it, this includes the Sunstriders who got exiled.
Form a design perspective you also want this, a different side of a group that’s interesting… take the druid for example, we had aa similar issue (ironical hu), in the lore and in wc3, , druids were spell casting damage dealers (aka Malfurion’s activities), but also bears, scout type talons and could cast tranquillity so had a healing element. this is how we initially perceived druids, but in classic, out of convenience as the need for the healer in a group gameplay became essential, they totally disregarded the other facets of the druid to only develop resto seriously.
Then druids started getting depicted in game as healers, it was such a reduction, like all the other bits, including the core of the druid balance, were just side things… the druid class became less appealing, less interesting, less fantastical, and reduced - not like what it was originally. yes it was still useable but only those who liked and wanted healers were interested now.
It’s exactly the same going on with the night elves, after the introduction in Wc3 and WotA trilogy, night elves had a powerful and detailed mage a arcane and civilization identity as well as a forest druid/hunter one and a priest identity that touched both centred on religion instead, then a demon hunter fel one through Illidan… they were fascinating and interesting you went from high civilization types in great night cities to forest dwelling types in vast forests nearly unseen as in the open they were often in animal form blending with the environs and didn’t build wood houses contrary to what some people want them to do, but lived underground in barrow dens to hibernate - they prefer nature pristine, untampered by civilization. which is why they welcome cities in city spaces, so forest spaces can be free of people building homes and small villages.
So when you remove the mage/civilization, remove the demon hunter bits, and also the caster side of the priest that lends to the arcane all you get is forest bit, which mixed amongst other things is fascinating, but now its just it, it becomes boring and like resto druid sonly appeals to those into fully going green, rather than having the night elves as your go to race for people who like both green stuff (druid) and dark wizard type fantasy (arcane stuff) as well as the unique noble demon corrupt elf fantasy - it now is just tree fantasy.
So you have ruins and trees, never get to see the other side of it, or interesting bits.
What? You got it all backwards, after the sundering any use of magic was punishable by death, most of former highborne led by Dath’Remar opposed the ban. It was the new government under Tyrande & Malfurion that banned the use of magic and enforced it. Moon Guard was dissolved after the Sundering.
You completely miss the fact that there was never a time when this three groups had major influence over the night elven society simultaneously. Until the sundering Azshara and her Highborne ruled the Kaldorei, with priesthood of Elune holding some power, but Malfurion was the first druid and he was still studying in the War of the Ancients novel. Back then druids did not hold any real power in the Kaldorei society.
After the sundering, the Highborne lost their power to the priesthood of Elune, and druids. This is true up to this day (well, with Shandris promoted to leadership, this may shift again, this time in favour of the Sentinels).
There was never a time when this “orders” as You call them were in balance and served the Kaldorei race.
Now that’s some heavy headcanon. Ever heard about the Long Vigil? A period when magic was outlawed, punishable by death? It lasted 10 thousand years. To put it into perspective, first Dark Trolls settled around the Well of Eternity around 15.000 Years ago. During the 5.000 years that led to the sundering they evolved into Night Elves, started researching the Well and it’s power and build an empire. All this in 5.000 years. Later, for twice that time (10.000) years they cut themselves off completely from their heritage, and forbade the use of magic under the penalty of death.
If anything, there’s little lore reason for them to fully embrace their arcane heritage now.
Most people I see want night elves to be portrayed as elite, savage warriors like they were portrayed in Warcraft 3. I’d say very few players would like to see one race as being overpowered, and that’s what You describe.
No hubris in Night Elven society now? Darnassus itself was one of the biggest examples of night elven hubris in their entire history - Teldrassil was grown because of Fandral Staghelm’s hubris and his desire to restore the night elves’ immortality.
I’m not a game developer or writer, but I’ve a feeling that from a design perspective of a MMORPG it’s more important to have balance between the races, and not have one that’s clearly more powerful than others.
They cut themselves off from any kind of mage identity and civilization identity (in the meaning of building great stone cities) after the sundering. To my knowledge, for 10.000 years they didn’t even have any capital city. Darnassus was built within a few years after the third war. For 10.000 years they didn’t build anything like the Temple of the Moon. If anything, it’s hard to understand why they built the Temple in the old style at all. I don’t think it’s ever explained why they did that.
I can’t stress this enough - when it comes to Night Elves as a playable race, the Kaldorei were never portrayed as prominent mages, or city dwelling types. Not in Warcraft 3, and not in World of Warcraft. It’s very clear in the lore that they wanted to cut themselves off from culture of the old Kaldorei Empire.
Sure, there are lore reasons to play a Kaldorei Mage now, but that doesn’t mean that the race as a whole should lean towards arcane aesthetic/fantasy.
Indeed it was, but it was the mages that decided that, there wasn’t even a druid in existent, and Malfurion agreed off the arcane knowledge most elves, or rather all elves were quite conversant in. Remember in those days, all the night elves learnt the use of arcane magic from infancy alongside walking, talking, reading and writing - WotA tells us (and this is why you see young children in Suramar in 7.0 learning magic - this is not a nightborne exclusive thing, this is how nit elves lived), and you didn’t need to be a mage , only the exceptionally talented picked that profession, but all new spell work - and although they’d be rusty because of lack of use, ALL10kj year old night elves will know arcane magic - they don’t’ need to be a mage, they were taught from early age.
Point is it was the NIGHT ELVES, who were all magic wielding, in particular the Moonguard, Highborne and other experts that all agreed on/to the ban. Remember no night elf wanted the legion back, and all new it was using the arcane that caused Azeroth to be visible and allow demons to come through. So in order to prevent that, and make it look like Azeroth had no magic, Alexstrazsa grew Nordrassil over the well of eternity to mask is energy and the elves, yes, the night elves, mostly arcane users, all decided the ban was necessary. Illidan was the only one who felt the opposite.
but they didn’t trust him, thinking he was a legion agenda.
Yet it is clear what each section brought, and it gives them an excellent opportunity to show that now
However, I believe for most of the pre-sundering era they did, arcane dominance came towards the end. in fact the rise of the civilization is, imo a produce of the harmony of all 3 of these. those cities were built with a combination of nature and arcnae magic, and like you see in DIre Maul, had all the fancy marble buildings and arcane power as well as treants and Ancients, as the people revered nature as well as were curious bout and studied the arcane.
Remember, the lore tells us, the night elves were not content to only live with the nature side of things. why would they, they were darn curious about Elune and drawn to the well. They would be, they’re made from it, and have an affinity. So while they learnt the ways of nature from Cenarius they learnt about Elune and the arcane through the well and the titan facilities they encountered, the combination of these 3, the priesthood, the emerging mages who specialised in utilising the well and the reverence of nature and it’s harmony of balance were prevalent.
not one was without the other, all were curious about the well, all were in reverence and loved nature, as well as magic, and all were fascinated with Elune who would have been the brightest part of the kaldorei - and it seems evident she is linked both to the arcane legacy and nature - arcane through the well, who’s waters they still revere as hers, and nautre as a goddess that they believe is responsible for all life with the arcane well of eternity as the cradle of life.
So it is this that would have resulted in that incredible degree of progress and development. Remember, they had challenges, but the triune partnership was incredible - this is what resulted in the pre-sundering empire and it is when Azshara drew away from that balance is when it careered off - hubris developing without the humility form respecting the order ofElune and addiction ensuing shortly after without any respect or adherence to harmony and balance that comes from the nature path.
yes, but they hadn’t always done so, the earlier leaders like Haydene were high Priestesses, and it makes sense leadership woudl have passed to an established civil authority or monarchy because face it, High Priestesses have a religious duty, and won’t have time to govern an entire civilization as it grew, Azshara came to power too remember she was not in power from the start.
and Malfurion became the first druid after the sundering, he was an arcane wielding night elf like every other night elf in the realm, though not a mage, not choosing that path - don’t know if he wasn’t talented enough, WotA show he was pretty gifted in spell work anyway and clever with it too, genius like clever, though his twin brother was the one that had the knack for the arcane, and soon found himself joining the ranks of the moonguard to eventually lead them in the resistance before transitioning to a demon hunter. Malfurion starts learning from cenarius, but in the revised edition of events, he isn’t the master druid he will become, it is arcnae magic he uses to disrupt the well and defeat Azshara.
Never power, however they were barely heard off in the legion period of the pre-sundering era, which is the last period of that era. The lore tells us that the night elves progressively abandoned their adherence and reverence to nature. I don’t believe they ever stopped loving nature, the lore doesn’t say that, loving nature and arcane magic seems to be deep in their core, however, as the arcane was providing so much, many lost that aspect of the race, and Wota shows us there were still night elves following that path, but they lived deeply in the forests and were almost unheard of in main society.
But they were never “in power” - those devoted to nature, who woudl be known as druids after the sundering are dedicated to nature, not the people nor the nation, whether a civilization, society or an empire. This is why Malfurion doesn’t exactly lead even though he is the main champion of the war of the ancients, he is a druid and dedicates himself to nature. Tyrande is the one as high Priestess that leads and she is the one that disbands the Highborne caste/order for the survivor group. A group which contained many of them too, as they shifted from a civilization/society based race to a ar mode - basically red alert is still in p lace during the long vigil. The arcane is banned in order to prevent the legion’s returning, many of the mages become druids , and 3,000 years in, in an attempt to stir the people to start rebuilding, Darth’remar ends up getting he and his followers exiles as the vast majority do not agree in restarting things with the threat of the legion out there and the real danger of any use of arcane magic drawing them back.
which is why now, when they return in wc3, night elves start rebuilding after that war, cos that vigil is ended. you also fully aware of the Highborne city of Eldre’thalas who never joined the survivors, opting to manage things themselves and retain the culture of the period - one they did without the priesthood and the newly advanced druids, though they had ancients with them.
Well it’s more like there was no civilization, it was war mode, the nation upheld the vigil, enforced it alongside the dragons and wild gods, while the druids were the only order who had another global mandate to restore devastated nature. Without a civilization or society being rebuild there is no need for civil authority persay, not when everyone was engaged in this vigil or were working with the druids.
But as said above, the caste was disbanded, then later outlawed when Darth’remar rebelled - anyone who clung to that identity and wanted to pursue arcane magic was outlawed, you must never forget a lot of the night elves had been former Highborne, and Moonguard - you have to remember that the main resistance is what survived and they were all fighters and soldiers, largely Moonguard or order of Elune - it was a military state of affairs.
The queen was defeated and removed and with her the old structure she had presided over, at least for them, combined with the fact they weren’t doing society/civilization.
Firstly, “evolution” into night elves did not take 5,000 years, they became night elves at that 15,000 years ago mark, they are all night elves by then. the transformation/creation took place between 20,000 years and 15,000 years… as the pre-sundering era starts 15,000 years ago and ends 10,000 years ago.
and they don’t cut themselves off from their heritage… , they just don’t rebuild and don’t use the arcane for spells, they are still suffused by the power of the well of Eternity, they have moonwells all over, the arcane is intrinsic to all their core caster classes - priest, druid and off course mage. in the priests it’s joined by light and void, in the druids it is joined by nature, and off course in the mage class it is predominantly that.
The use of magic for spells is what’s prohibited, the night elves themselves actually don’t change. Sure their attitude changes, but the core of their culture is essentially the same their abilities, their talents, their beliefs their behaviours etc - they gained a wake up call and much needed wisdom.
Still, to me it feels like the thrust of civilization has been spearheaded particularly by the arcane users. How is this headcanon? It’s an observation - the priesthood was not developing society, it’s a priesthood, they tend to the spirituality of the people, the will of the goddess, and the hearts and minds of the people… that’s their purview, and for the period of the long vigil, their sentinels also additionally were the fighting force. In the pre-sundering era, they still had them, but they were for the purposes of the Order largely since after the conquest of Kalimdor, the empire had its established forces. We are told of the order’s sentinels in wota, and they weren’t the nation’s fighting force, they only become so in the long vigil. The druids deal with nature, they don’t develop society or civilization - they are tending to nature, the balance of nature, the restoration of nature and the guarding/protecting of nature
So who then does the civil leadership/ where artisans, craftsmen, designers, builders, academics, educators, diplomats… tradesmen, researchers, miners etc - which when a society goes back to normal form war mode, becomes the largest section, amongst the night elves, this is where the arcnae using Highborne led, being at the pinnacle of production, building, craft with magic being their most effective and powerful tool to aid in creation of these things or some of the greatest works. the Prince’s like Farondis and Totheldrinn are all civil leaders, they rule cities and regions. Lord Ravencrest another - this entire section of society is meaningless during the war time that was the long vigil, but is now totally relevant as the night elves return to normal after their vigil.
both the Darnassians and the other night elves like the Shen’dralar who were always living as a society, as well the Nightborne. compare that to another war mode group like the Moonguard in Moonguard stronghold, who were living like the other night elves, war mode.
Most people responding on how night elves should behave are blood elf players who in other topics insist night elves shouldn’t have arcane magic, civilization and should be utterly feral and savage because arcnae magic and civilization for the elves belongs to the horde and the blood elves - therefore it somehow makes them less of a snowflake.
No, most night elven players have loved the night elf civilization as well as the forest elements of the night elves. my observation is that people have wanted night elves to be hardcore, dangerous and badass like in Warcraft 3,. not an utterly savage , feral group literally - which they never were in wc3 - we have worgen, trolls, and to some extent orcs for a race that is savage, feral and not really magical, a race labelled elves, especially the original elves, define the race type and number one on that list is magic.
night elves greatest attraction is their contrast, when great ferocity is balanced with great serenity - this is remarkable not if you just show the serenity. When the remote undisturbed rural forest, with almost no sign of any civilization or society is then contrasted with an incredible beautiful city - then it’s remarkable , however just the forest and ruins alone isn’t special. when nature magic is contrasted with arcane, when savagery in battle is contrasted with a highly civilised sophistication - then it’s remarkable.
And actually this is how the night elves use to be portrayed, and when classic came out, we knew not everything about them had showed up in game - but we were hoping we would see the great city (either by Darnassus improving or them repairing an old one), we thought we would see the dangerous, fierce side of the night elves show up too - as we had seen the peaceful time . thing is hat we saw over time was far more often than not, a far cry from what they had written about them. not all of it, but often a lot of it. legion, despite all its errors and retcons, had the greatest presentation of stuff form the night elven lore books and novels in the epic way or close to the epic way they were written about - this is what most people want to see.
they want to see the whole lot properly. if you think night elven arcnae magic and civilization isn’t popular or desired, then the Nightborne woudl have no fans, or followers, nor woudl the Highborne and Azshara etc - these are very popular parts of Warcraft and they are night elven parts , all of them.
Haha, good observation, there is still hubris, and it proves that arcane addiction is off course not the sole source of hubris. in fact, it was hubris that came first, and this led to arcane addiction - - as it is hubris that cause you to believe you don’t need to be careful, and think yourself so incredible that the usual precautions and proper measures your people took , now no longer apply to you - you ignore the wisdom of your race, your priests, your druids etc.
And that’s off course not to say druids can’t have hubris, anyone with a power void of humility will become proud, arrogant and off course act with hubris. Fandral was later shown in Stormrage to be secretly trying to resurrect his son, and that was a major part of his motivation for Teldrassil it turns out he was being manipulated by the old gods. I didn’t like that turn, because I felt that character was good to have amongst the night elves, and while most of the lore has shown them move on form there, there should be occasional examples of that coming up amognst them that reflects the insanity of the legion period of their pre-sundeirng era.
I disagree with you o this one, all races cannot be the same at all, it’s to bland, you will have overpowered ones an d under powered one, What’s important is that the players character is off the same level, not the races.
e.g. any human can be capable of being the greatest of any class, but humanity on the whole is far behind say the level of development of say the elves or the draenei. you can’t write a story of a race that’s lived over 10,000 years, attributed very high intelligence and the greatest civilization of this world has ever seen, be on the same level as humanity that is vulnerable and mostly flawed, lives 70years etcc.
how would you distinguish space age draenei or genetically much stronger tauren or orcs? diminutive gnomes have none of those things but they do have technology, and can use it to great advantage.
you can’t have powerful enemies of any race if they’re all going to be the same. No races can’t all be the same and even factions within races can’t be the same, some cultures and societies will make different and better choices and as such would be a lot better than others, even on a different level even though they have the exact same genetic make up and capacity. Let alone when you now add races with different capacity as they are different species.
you just write accordingly. All you need is for the player characters to be capable of reaching that highest point.
So while night elves would be so much more than humans in many areas and ways, at the end of the day, the human player is capable of rising to be as good as any elf, or at least the elven players. this is what is important.
Put another way, the average elf or night elf is a lot more magical than the average human because they are different races and are at different stages, however there are above average humans and some of them can be as good as any of the elves. You play one of the special humans, whether you are an average human that trained and stuck with it and became special, or you were just naturally gifted, either way you are, however the rest of humanity doesn’t order themselves as competently as the elves - maybe it’s because the elves genes are better, and while that may be true there are many other factors, like upbringing, culture, decisions culture makes, knowledge. That are responsible for this.
And hey, you can be superior on paper and it still counts for nothing. Being the most naturally talented or having super genes like an elf doesn’t automatically mean you will win, or you will be the best even if the vast majority of areas in your life and vastly better than the “inferior” guy. look how powerful the Man’ari Eredar demons we defeated were then us, yet for all their power and enhancement and superiority they still lost.
So yes, you can and should and do have in aa n mmo races that are different than others, and you should - this is a good part of design, however for gameplay purposes, you have to ensure that the player characters are able to achieve the same level. if elves are in general more powerful than humans or gnomes, then the player gnome will eventually be able to gain power to rise to the level of the elf or orc…in Warcraft, gnomes use their technology to make up for some of their short comings and give them a set of advantages too. Although gameplay hasn’t made racials be a massive factor in gameplay, but in lore yes, races are very different.
they did no such thing, the main group stopped using the arcane to prevent the legion returning, they didn’t cut themselves off as some sort of anti arcane sentiment or new stance - they were constantly and still are surrounded by arcane magic through the Well of Eternity and the moonwells it’s part of the night elf package. and part of the elf race set - magic. Very magical - Wc3 introduces them last the most magical group of people. read the manual
All the northern group stopped until end of Wc3 RoC was the use of the arcane for spells and there were several night elven communities, like the Shen’dralar, the Farondis, the nightborne and the Suramar Moonguard that didn’t.
Correct, the northern group didn’t, and didn’t bother to build or rebuild. why/ they were in war mode, Long vigil mode, on a mission, it wasn’t life as normal while that threat of the Legion remained and they felt they needed to prevent them from coming so they dedicate themselves to it.
yet not the entire race did, did it. Those in the cities continued life , albeit with restriction, limited to a city, , but they did. arcane magic was their fascination, and were content.
I never felt it was necessary to explain why, because if you follow the story, it makes sense. it’s a natural progression. The Long vigil has ended, there is no longer a need for military mode/Vigil mode, life they suspended for 10k years can resume.
They are no longer in isolation, they have other races now, they have to develop as people again, … they may have felt the task of the Long vigil far too important to do anything, in addition to that, the type of civilization they can build and are use to , requires arcane magic, which is banned.
have to realise these aren’t people re-learning how to do society and discover how to build buildings, and use new materials… this is what most people aren’t getting, night elves are not primitive people behind in development. This is an advanced race, in a post apocalyptic era, and the same generation still around.
now the invading aliens they had stopped using electricity and machines to prevent them returning to earth have now returned and ultimately destroyed, the need to dedicate themselves solely to this and not use their electricity (i.e. arcane magic) finishes, they’ will start using these things.
there are people amongst them highly gifted in the arcane, who have never been able to develop this talent., artisans and craftsmen not been able to use many of the high level things they had developed and trained with, they’ll now be able to employ.
A city is necessary to a nation or group of people for lots of reasons, especially in governance, optimisation, progress, development also in strengthening - you woudl have people who do art, music, research of all kinds, these are all important things too that woudl have been largely (if not entirely in some cases) put on pause because of the emergency state or the vigil task) and back.
Similarly if you shift to the city groups of night elves who were hidden in their city spaces, opening up and now free to come out of isolation has many advantages they’d need to and greatly benefit from doing to grow once more.
it’s just a natural development.
Wc3 is not the only portrayal of night elves, what night elves are is defined in their lore, it is silly to stick rigidly to wc3’s portrayal when it was just a stage in their story, and one that was introduced as a stage in their story because they were launched with the WotA alongside and the story of their background that explained why they are how you se them in Wc3.
they won’t stay that way forever. to say that they were never defined as mages when you are told they are born from the arcane, tied to it and were the ones who developed it , and to heights lost to the rest of the world - makes that claim irrelevant. they tell you the reason the group is in nature mode in wc3, and the reason fort hat isolation and ban ends at the end of that very chapter - you who read and follow them, surely won’t expect that night elves 4 years later with a history like the pre-sundering era, the events, the long vigil, the events of wc3, would stay that way?
It’s impossible, well its possible, but it’s silly, no one will expect that.
Who woudl expect them to stay unchanged, still stagnated, and not develop or advance? The story is moving on for them, they’ve come out of the long vigil, out of isolation, whether it’s isolation without arcane magic , or isolation in a city (Shen’dralar/Nightborne etc).
So it is also very clear form the lore, that they woudl do exactly what we see them do in wow, they would start restoring their civilization and those of them who stopped using arcane magic would start again.
And you are conflating culture of the kaldorei with the use of arcnae magic. It is not the culture of the kaldorei that was stopped, it was the use of magic that was banned and a pause on civilization to carry out the long vigil… huge distinction.
You must then think of where the night elves will go… and blizzard showed us. My problem is that they are not portraying them with the epic style they write about them in the novels. However the direction is consistent. They are the kaldorei - children of the stars, not children of the trees. They’ve started rebuilding their civilization, and using arcane magic, and this hasn’t removed their forest side, or forest culture - the forest remains, the druids remain, the forest homes remain too as druids have their own in nature life - as part of their calling… but the rest of the night elves have other callings, other jobs, other pursuits, priests can now restore their temples, their people - the non-druid ones would need their cities again, develop their families, their skills, and those that are good at arcane magic would develop that again, and join those like the Shen’dralar who never stopped and be brought up to date.
So you will have the civilization side, the forest side, the demon hunter side, the temple side, the sentinel/hunter/warden type - those are all facets of night elves that when looking at the whole, makes them impressive.
Name us another race in game who has all their facets on display, in a meaningful way? I’ll wait and whilst you do that, I’ll later explain to why night elves are special snowflakes who are the only race who deserve everything.
Humans, and Orcs… outside that, very few others., what blizzard tends to do is cycle between them. Currently for blood elves, the light facet is on display, no other. We have yet to see the wood elf Farstrider facet, but I am sure we will.
For night elves we’ve seen the druid one far too much, we’ve also seen the arcane one a few times in the Highborne, and nightborne of cata and legion, we’ve seen teh demon hunter a bit in TBC and legion, we’ve seen a little of the sentinel too especially recently… it’s the Moon Priestess one we have seen little of, I mean you can count the Night warrior experience as that, but it still feels gimicky to me.
This is why they need to be better at showing this.
The Orcs have the different valleys in Org, the humans the districts in SW, same for the Dwarves in IF, the Tauren in TB (Been a while since i last was there, though), gee, i’m beginning to see a bit of a pattern here…
Yes, the Night elves have been getting a lot of attention, after the curb-stomping from Cata to BfA, they deserve it (And yes, i hope they can rest in obscurity for a few years while another race gets Blizzard’s baleful “attention”), but let’s not act as if different city districts for different aspects of a race’s culture is some unique thing.
I specifically said “meaningful way.” So - the ones which actually Blizzard takes time to expand upon, because many sections within Orgrimmar and Stormwind don’t actually serve anything other than the race/class combo.
So we have Orc Shamans, Orc Warriors, Orc Hunters and Orc Warlocks. All other Orc class combos are not shown in a meaningful way.
Stormwind has Human Paladins, Priests, Mages and Rogues. All others are not shown in a meaningful way.
None of the others are used to advance Human lore.
See above.
Because none of the others matter, truly matter to Blizzard.
For Blood Elves, we have Magister involvement in everything. It’s Blood Knights and Farstriders that seem to interchange; however Blood Elf Mages are always involved, at some point.
But where are those that actually saved Silvermoon with their new magical methods? Blood Elf Warlocks basically put Silvermoon back together, almost overnight.
It’s because things like Night Elf Mages and Blood Elf Warlocks; however amazing we know they are - they are simply small “branches” to the overall society. They are there, but Blizzard will use them few and far between and only when absolutely necessary.
If blizzard can primarily focus on Night Elf Druids, Priests and Sentinels along with Blood Elf Mages, Paladins and Rangers - then that is what we can expect moving forward.
At the end of the day, Elf fans need to shut up. We have more than enough going for us and this isn’t World of Elfcraft - as per War Within, so much is happening with very little elf involvement. We have some lore for Void Elves; but once War Within is over - then we get our big Elf focus again, then it will move onto the Last Titan.
After that - as far as the Elves go, it will be the Nightborne that will be the least used elf race for lore moments. By the time this Saga comes to an end - Night Elves, Blood Elves and Void Elves would have recieved more than their fair share. I do hope more is in store for the Nightborne, since I don’t just stick to Night Elves and Blood Elves…I do love my Nightborne Windwalker and Mistweaver Monk.
I don’t htink its fair ot say that, obviously when fans care about somethign htey’ll talk about it, - it’s not htat other races don’t have similar issues and also similar needs, it’s just htat the elf loving fanbase is larger so chances of people spotting the short falls is larger.
the shortfalls are still not a good thing, and if fans carea bout them, it’s all the more reason to addresst hem. Ideally they should be doing so in every race.
But blizzard had a change of approach going from classiic into TBc, of e.g. in the alliance, draenei became the priest race, so all other pirests were barely visible - htis included in particular the night elf priesthood, and this is one of hte reasons we see so little, not becuase it isn’t there in lore, it’s thier approach, they started developing hte alliance as a race of it’s own, so the night elf were de facto druids, draenei defacto priests, even though in lore, for night elves, it’s the arcane that’s the core, LEune, the magicl well, and nature, is the large partner - this but not the centre, it’s why they are children of the stars, and purple skinned, with silver eyes, rather than green skin, or chidlren of the trees, wtih green eyes –
when you aren’t showing your races properly becuase you have now decided you can only be bothered to develop the allinace entity, and the horde entity, then this is how they proceeded.
on the allinace: Humans were the warriors, mages paladins, DKs (when they came), depsite the fact that both Draenei and Night elves are just on a different level - but were any of htem shown much? It’s in the lore, it’s in the books, human magecraft doens’t hold a cnadle to the highborne or moonguard or the Draenei… but humans are the mages, paladins and warirors (priests second to draenei but only when the Church of hte light came into it), Draenei are the priests (with their paladins second), night elves are the drudis and hunters. Dwarves are the sidekicks (so a litle of warrior, a little of hunter)
etc, and this is how they developed it, they didn’t bother to continue to expand properly. Oh occasionally you’d see a forsaken priest, or a night elf one or a blo - but as in developing signfincant portrayal… it’s a wonder the night elven /nightborne got such visibility for the mage and demon hunters - draenei never got it, even though lorewise we know they have it, and it’s not weak, nor small, it’s just not visible.
Where the blood elves lack visibility is the wood elf branch - the Farstriders, which is odd because outsdie the starting area again, and seeing how Lor’thermar is afarstrider, yet it’s aspec is een more in Sylvanas and Vereesa and the Silver Covenant.
Hey mate! First of all, thank You for a long reply, this must have taken a lot of time!
Before replying I wanted to make a notion that I consider myself a lore enthusiast, but not an expert by any means. I take my knolwedge from many sources, but due to Blizzard retcons, some of it may be outdated. Sometimes the sources are conflicting. If I’m wrong about anything, i’m open to criticism. Now, to the point:
Directly from WC3 Game manual: “However, Furion declared that they would never practice the arts of magic again. (…) Dath’Remar, the brash, outspoken leader of the high-borne, began to mock the druids publicly – calling them cowards for refusing to wield the magic that was theirs by right. Furion and the druids chaffed of Dath’Remar’s arguments and warned the high-borne that any use of magic would be punishable by death.” https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Warcraft_III:_Reign_of_Chaos_Game_Manual#Night_Elf_History
To me, this clearly states that the ban was placed by Malfurion.
That’s interesting, i read WotA but don’t remember that. Can You point me to a more specific place in the book? Other sources tell me that magical abilities were scarce in Night Elf society - see this entry about moonguard from Warcraft Encyclopedia:
“Given the power of the Well, it seemed obvious that combat skill alone would not suffice to counteract magical attack. Only a few scattered soldiers were found to possess magical skills, and such abilities were minor at best.” https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Warcraft_Encyclopedia/Moon_Guard
Hmm… not sure if I can agree with that. There was no harmony of nature and civilization in the old Kaldorei Empire. This is evidenced by the Warcraft encyclopedia entry about Cenarius: When the night elves first developed around the Well of Eternity, their curiosity led them to meet and befriend a number of powerful entities, including Cenarius. The demigod became fond of the night elves, and he spent a great deal of time teaching them about the natural world. Under his guidance, the night elves developed a strong empathy for the living forests of ancient Kalimdor and reveled in the harmonious balance of nature.
Over time, however, the night elves were increasingly drawn to the cosmic energies of the Well. Furthermore, the rapid growth of the night elf civilization led inevitably to the creation of new buildings and roads. Large tracts of forest vanished. Tranquil woodlands turned into sprawling cities, and great trees were warped and twisted into shapes that would better serve as night elf dwellings. The night elves were losing touch with nature.
The number of night elves pursuing their studies with the demigod dwindled, and Cenarius was grieved to realize that all his work had been for naught. Reluctantly he departed night elf lands. https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Warcraft_Encyclopedia/Cenarius
In that regard, this is something that seems correct to me:
Now this:
Can You please provide any source for that? The warcraft wiki entry about Night Elfs quotes World of Warcraft: The Magazine Volume 2 Issue 1 on the information, that around 15.000 years ago a tribe of dark trolls settled around the Well.
It may be that i worded it poorly, but this was what i meant. What i also meant was that if someone fell in love with the WC3 portrayal of the Night Elves, then it was not about their beautiful cities (WC3 elves didn’t really build cities, most of their “buildings” are actually ancients) or about their potent mages (they had no mage unit, Priestess of the Moon was a hero unit, as opposed to humans, who has both priests and sorcerers as normal units, as well as Archmage and Blood Mage hero units).
We’ll need to politely disagree on that one then, but i’d like You to consider the fact that this very discussion shows that the portrayal of one’s race in game is very important to the players.
I wholehartedly agree. This is why Blizzard’s writing when it comes to races is horrible. Realisticly speaking, I believe that Draenei should have been able to single handedly wipe out all the other races combined. Alas, this is not so, and for balance reasons all the races are equally powerfull. Sadly the lore is written in such a way as to support this statement.
I don’t really know how to respond, it is as if we’re reading different manuals (assuming You meant WC3 manual). Yes, it introduces night elves as formerely very magical people, yet currenlty punishing arcane magic with death.
You can’t just pause civilization for 10.000 years and suddenly resume it like nothing happend. Try learning a language, and later not using it for several years - knowlegde not used disappears. Same as manual skills. If someone learned arcane formulas or how to use a chisel, he will not suddenly remember all that after 10.000 years of not using it at all.
Well, I don’t expect them to remain unchanged, but since they spent the last 10.000 years (some of them living this whole time) stuck in one way of life, then i expect the chages to take a lot of time and be gradual. The only time they changed their way of life rapidly was when a cataclysmic event reshaped the whole planet, nothing of the sort happend recently, so I don’t expect them to change rapidly. Gradualy, yes.
Well then, Amirdrassil captures that well, doesn’t it? You don’t have any great buildings like in Suramar, but You have:
The temple side represented by new moonwell (great questline/cinematic about it’s creation) and Terrace of the Moon (actually, the terrance itself somehow reminds me of the terrance around the old temple in Darnassus).
Forest side represented by Root-Bound Sanctuary and burrow dens near Fields of Reverie,
Night elf military represented by Sentinels stationed at Keen-Edge Hall, and Arlithrien Lodge where You can find the leaders of the sentinel army, members of the Wardens and Unseen Path,
Night elf misfits ie. death knights, dark rangers, and illidari stationed at Twilight Watchtower.
Mordent Evenshade encounterd in Bel’Ameth remarks about establishing a propoer place for mages: “With so many promising young students of the arcane gathering here, we may need to establish a more permanent place of learning.”
Isn’t that what You wanted? All the different aspects of kaldorei culture represented in game?
This area doesn’t truly exist anyway. Blood Elf Farstriders have always been more “Arcane Rangers” since we always see Halduron with Arcane arrows and Lor’themar attacking those with arcane traps in the blood elf heritage questline.
“Wood Elves” is just more lowborn night elves than it ever is for Blood Elves, who are of Highborne descent.
Blood Elves have always had a primary showcase of Magisters and Blood Knights, closely then followed by Farstriders and…even though Sin’dorei Warlocks make up some of Azeroth’s most powerful, controlled and sophisticated Warlocks, we never see them in action.
Blizzard simply don’t care about Night Elf Mages or Blood Elf Warlocks. That’s it and we just have to accept it. It’s not their interest in moving those races forward. We might like them but we aren’t the authors.
I think that only showing a few classes for each race is Blizzard’s way to make races more distinct, at least in NPC representation (Player characters are by definition exceptional cases), if one race is represented by all the classes it can be for players, that would be boring too.
So the capital cities have trainers for every class a race can be (And a few token NPCs), but in the armies a race actually sends out, it’s mostly the cliché classes, so for example NE sentinels (warriors) and druids, and BE mages and paladins.
Thanks you for the warm and considering opening. It did take me a long time to right and compile this, and I appreciate the time you took to read it, it honours the writer, even if you disagree with most of it or think it garbage.
Lore enthusiasts are always welcome, we are few and far between and there is so much lore. I am not an expert on it either, but I know a lot of it when it comes to night elves.
There are multiple sources on this… all the night elves were in agreement, and the knowledge of the effect of the arcane comes from the mages. Moonguard and Highborne.
Darth’remar’s response to Malfurion is 3,000 years after the sundering, not when the initial decision was made in the presence
you misunderstand, magical skills enough to be qualified to operate as a mage on battle or profession would not be common amongst such soldiers, … this doesn’t mean most night elves didn’t know how to you cast some spells.
The first book that describes the Suramar we see in game, that Malfurion grows up in, is where this mentioned. this is why you see Nightborne children casting spells, this is common place in the empire for night elves.
you can use spells, doesn’t mean you are good enough at it to be anywhere near effective as an adult or professional, that took talent and learning into that specific field.
Malfurion himself was never a mage, but he was a smart dude and he knew how to cast spells, before he studied with Cenarius, - it also shows you that casting spells is not a bad thing either or wrong somehow, what was terrible about their society was the addiction and the hubris… mis-use of magic, why is this problematic? because magic is sacred to them and they , up till that point had been very responsible about its use.
These guys had gone far too much into this to the point of ignoring basic decency , forgetting themselves, all caught up in their results.
When you add time to it in a trajectory, you can see thing shift, there is a point o perfect balance that then progressively shifted resulting in a departure from Cenarius’ religion.
At the heart the night elves are arcane folk, not nature, they are taught love of nature, and there studies were a result of curiosity of the world around them. So while it is a part of them, it’s not necessarily in their DNA.
however the nature religion was there from early days due to the teachings of Cenarius and continues on in the druid class, even though Elune is the deity.
And they still loved nature, notice there is plenty of evidence elsewhere about this, it’s just that the love is not as pure as Cenarius’ druidic type teaching - note the druid way is to leave nature untouched and grow as is, but the night elves never do that, while druids try to eschew that they bend it to the emerald dream, - something Cenarius is fine with, altering the changes in the natural. They don’t believe or care for cities and other things like that because as druids they are custodians of nature, they watch over it and tend it, both as a love and as their job.
the other night elves are not druids, never have all been, as such they love the beauty of nature way back from those early days, and it is evidenced both in the description of their cities in the books (stone wrought with nature) and the presentation of those cities in game.
Showcase evidence: Darnassus, Eldre’thalas (Dire Maul), Zin’Azshari (from warbringers Azshara and Suramar… ALL have tons of gardens and trees. Zin’Azshari has rooftop gardens galore , groves, Suramar has a lot more garden space than Silvermoon ever did, and Dire maul has gardens too with Ancient protectors and even Ancients of lore/wind/arcane still there, some that got corrupted, alright many did, but others that are now working with the Highborne Estulan to help restore the city, including the one that gives you the quests to Dire Maul East…
No, they aren’t pure nature like a druid or Cenarius’ idea of how it should be…but he’s not a mortal, he’s a demi god, a wild god, and can live in that perfect natural state, and this is what the druids love or many of them aspire too. This is not tenable for all.
You confuse narrative style. you see a title, and then a description starts, so you attribute the time line of the title to be the initiation of events… it isn’t.
The trolls are at their height 20k years ago, it is during this period that the dark trolls are being transformed to night elves, whether it was a progressive thing, or an event, Elune’s hand in it, who knows, but the night elf period starts 15,000 years ago, 15k years is not the transition time, the night elf period starts 15k years ago, they are night elves now, not dark trolls.
it’s a similar thing for many of the timelines in Chronicles volume 1, this is how you should interpret it.
I do concede that it could have happened aroudn the 15k year mark, but did it take centuries or was it
Yes, but the love for night elves is seldom limited to the wc3 portrayal, it has bene my observation that what most people loved about night elves in WC3, was NOT the aesthetics of a near primitive race, but rather the presentation of a powerful badass group of people and sexy elf chicks.
They were hard core and no nonsense, it felt fresh for elves - everyone who then proceeded to pay attention to their lore almost unanimously loved the fantasy concept of a night civilization, highly advanced arcane magic and a wonder land paradise of magic, civilization and nature, that was so incredible it was so tragic how it fell.
As such, concepts and dreams of how this civilization looked like was one of the most exciting things about them, and to see one of those long ago legends that wielded magic at a level the high elves had lost the majority of us was an exciting prospect.
Very exciting, the night elves form day one were more than primitive their aesthetic might have suggested to those who confused it with rural, this would have been clear to anyone who picked up the wc3 manual, as such this was not the initial perception of them for the majority of the player base, we saw them as a post apocalyptic group coming out of a period o “living without technology and electricity to deny the demons” but this was a race of legends, powerful enough to defeat the legion.
Why do you think Queen Azshara is so popular and eventually when they showed Suramar it was so popular even blood elf fans wanted it for their own though it was clearly from the night elves…
It’s because people absolutely love this and always have.
This shouldn’t surprise you as the morality of the player base are city dwelling folk, and their idea of accomplished and powerful is tied to civilization which the night elves have always had, as a race, so having those things in some form return was an expectation and a hope too for those who knew more than wc3 about them.
In the manual and in the 3 part volume novels that has the bulk of their lore - remember Wc3 is an introduction in the game of sorts, but the story of the race… broadens it and is far grander than what you saw in WC3.
Wc3 speaks to the epicness of the race, and then the war of the ancients unfolds an incredible portrayal.
Only the ignorant or those who don’t particularly like night elves tend not to want this. and sure you can like night elves without necessarily loving them or being into them. You can like that wc3 aesthetic you see, it’s PART of the race, and it’s not a bad thing - it gives you the green end of the night elves, which is part of their identity, but the race becomes truly special when you see the purple end too, ait is the combination that makes them incredible. otherwise they’re just a generic wood elf race (green side) and a generic dark elf race (purple side) - the extent of both the civilization and arcane mastery as well as the extent of both the forest isolation of the northern group and nature use are truly remarkable in how extreme they are and correlate with the long years and stated achievements of the race.
Anyone , and I mean anyone who reads about it an hears about it will want to see it… like all of it.
Who wants to see crappy night elves, when you played badass night elves? who wants to see landscape littered with ruins and partly devastated forests, when an incredible civilization is what this race is capable of?
And for all those who think people don’t want that, the Nightborne are a clear indication that they do want this and they love this sort of thing.
It is, every race needs to special and remarkable, but they can do so in all sorts of ways. Elves - and i mean all elves are typified by t arcane magic mastery and love, nature love, and archery, and in Warcraft they are also very religious - whether Elune or the light - well maybe religious is not the word, devout.
Night elves are the bigger and original presentation that typifies the race, as all others are off shoots and variants… blood elves do not differ by having a civilization - they differ by being diurnal and exchanging the sun for moon and stars for the sun, and Elune for the light. They both love nature, BOTH of them however, the night elves still have that extreme nature love, just like their arcane handling , as we see in the Nightborne (for those who never read and struggle to visualise ) is also quite extreme. Night elves are also much older, and have a different history being in a different land for which Kalimdor and the broken isles are the only remaining remnants of the Kalimdor suepr continent that once covered the land - as such they are different but otherwise they are quite similar.
Elves however are a different ball game from Trolls who are more feral , and savage though they are intelligent and have education. Orcs, gnomes, humans, they are all different in ways that have basically different racial characteristics and strengths but also history.
I like the lore they wrote about the night elves, but hate how they have panned it out in wow, this race needed to be a lot more epic in game than it has turned out to be.
A combination of lack of desire, shifting developmental priorities, like the one to push the horde HEAVILY after classic, was to the great detriment of the night elves because theyw ere allinace, and that is the faction they wanted people to stop playing.
So we saw little to no development of the night elven priesthood, and the Highborne and the magical aspect of the night elves , which were always part of the plan to return after your wc3 introduction which occurs at the end of the second era (wc3 being the "war of the anceints2 of the long vigil culture. all had development pushed back a lot… what came in cata should have come after Dire Maul, what came in legion we should have seen in TBC or wrath - not storyline but the progression of the race.
They didn’t want the alliance to be popular, so the horde was focused on, made a lot cooler, the blood elves were shown up and many of the traits about the night elves we admired in both Warcraft 3 and in the WotA trilogy were developed in the blood elves -they wanted the horde very very attractive, and that development drive would last until Legion, long after the horde was he established dominant faction for the elder game , end game and all competitive play, as well as the hardcore and active fanbase.
These forums evident this till this day. And it will continue if night elves are never given their Suramar type civilization and void elves are left homeless wanderers in Stormwind, just the idyllic druidic forest is not enough, it never has bene.
On it’s own, it is boring to most players, nice to look at briefly, but not exciting and not what they would consider great or remarkable- it only becomes special when levied against the contrasting kaldorei civilization with it’s advanced developments.
Yes and no, because the way we are presented, is that we have two groups of night elves, on 3, that never paused on civilization and one that did, the one that did still remembers it, but yes they are rusty, but there e are two big factions that do, and all the ancients that do, and also one ghostly faction to which it is the perpetual present, and they are a quite sane and sentient.
As a whole yes, but I see the night elves as 3 distinct faction groups… the Vigil based group is the one that would slowly change, but how slow? the night elves RAPIDLY changed from their civilization to that state after the sundering, , they are capable of the same rapid change and have the means to return to the best bits of their civilization.
The other group are the Highborne group led by the Shen’dralar, whiles this is no longer a city population, we know at last 200+ survive and have added greatly to their number both from former Highborne that were living amongst the long Vigil group, some as druids some as others, and new post sundering night elves, obviously with the talent, but unable to develop it due to the ban their people had on using such arts.
How so, it’s all the druidic idea of heaven… love of nature but nothing representing the cool parts of their civilization and the icons of of the priest, mage and the civilization. Priests do temples, mages do cities, civilians do cities- druids do trees, demon hunters do fel landscapes.
Personnel are present in Amirdrassil, but the full scope of the night elves isn’t apparent at all, only the druidic faith visualisations.
You are just naming the buildings that they are holed up, lodges and tents. I expect a temple for the Order of Elune, a city for the nation’s central and governmental command with a mage academy/headquarters, I expect a world tree for the druids, but a forest as representing their part, in a city, nature love is seen in gardens and groves, and creatures of nature, including treants wandering about - off course night elf lore tells us buildings are also interwoven with.
Funny that Moonwells are consider a priest thing only, they are also a mage thing, in fact the Well of eternity is a night elf thing that touched everything - arcnae users, priests who consider the well sacred as where the goddess dwells and druids, as it nurtures life…
The zone is the forest side no doubt about it, and it’s not that it’s bad, it’s pretty, but for that to be all of he night elves is disappointing, because they are not a forest elf race alone, and forefronting that side above the others both breaks them and makes them boring. They are made from the well of eternity, arcane source, an arcane essence, they have purple skin and silver eyes, and great aptitude for arcane magic, their Moon goddess is an arcane goddess - since most of her powers are arcane orientated and the magic of the stars and moon are arcane - this is all the dark elf side. - the forest elf side is the nature love, the treants, the druidic magic - no doubt a big part of the night elves, but while in the design intention it is an equal half, it is actually the added half to the original dark elf core.
Removing all of the arcnae and civilization bits, and just making it about nature, turning Tyrande into a druidic priestess, Elune a Loa type nature goddess, this is all lobbing the night elves full into nature which isn’t what they are…
You should create a sub-race and make it that if you want that there, there is too much in the night elves for them to be that, they are the wrong candidate to fulfil that niche as a main focus because it erodes their earlier lore and presentation, and many of us like that.
I would suggest following that pure nature focus for nature elves in a a night elf worgen race or a Cenarion race or a Sylvar night elf race (maybe many night elves became Sylvar and can cross back over via Amirdrassil).
A Pressing Issue Laid Bare
Green ISN’T the colour for the night elves either. it’s purple, making the nature the main thing even more at odds… it only works when nature is a contrast to the - the near untouched tranquillity of a forest that feels pre-civilization, is in contrast with a n incredibly advanced civilization .
Their forest shouldn’t be green wonders, they should be night time stuff, with purple and blue colours like the Arden weald has - I feel the green forests are fine for druids as a class, but not night elves on the whole, who should be use to a different type of forest. I expect green forests for high elves/blood elves, humans, Tauren, Orcs, Trolls. - Day folk. Night elves are purple - this is their core, Draenei, void elves, and the Nightborne sub-race all came later, they shouldn’t’ now just remove purple, because those races have it. Yay let’s remove peach an gold from humans, because blood elves, gnomes, and dwarves have that skin tone it’s heavily represented colour in them… doesn’t make sense right… yes, cos more than one race can have purple you don’t have to shift night elves to green.
Off Focus
The focus of the night elves is off… it just is, even the sense of their main distinction which is night is missing, yet nature is thrust as the main distinction? That wasn’t the case originally - night elves had nature sure, and it was A distinction, not THE main distinction. the main distinction is being nocturnal then extremely magical - whether in arcane or nature or fel… - a lack of civilization isn’t the main distinction, that is just part of the story, because the night elves had a civilization a great one, and they show us 3 communities still in it. clearly it’s not their exception… being children of the stars, with that star culture, night bound is it … so when you read the entire story at a stretch, you never settle on nature night elves being the end state, it is a stage 2 that ends in Wc3 - when you understand why they went full nature as according to the lore, continuing in that way post wc3 makes little to no sense. Which is why blizzard does show them building a city, arcane magic returning, although it’s all rather slow if you ask me. It’s nice to introduce the communities of the Shen’dralar and the Nightborne to bring a fuller version of that side into them, seeing that as you mentioned, the development or return will take time.
But now you have 2-3 communities that haven’t been without a civilization nor without arcnae, they are at that pre-sundering level. so it’s nice to use them a lot. they are there, we have to see them.
We don’t have to wait till the long vigil group slowly regain their civilization, we have Highborne /Nightborne faction that are full pre-sundering civilization and two cities to bare too. we can have those up and running, and even have a Highborne faction operating from there, like there is an Illidari faction. Like the Illidari, it’s a lore faction in that you don’t choose it at character creation. however this is the faction that both Highborne and Nightborne operate from and if the player nightborne is part of that faction and the horde , just like the player demon hunter is both part of hte Illidari faction and the alliance, there fore the night elf Highborne - (presumably any of mage, priest, hunter, warrior ) , can be part of the Highborne faction.
And you can introduce specific customisations for night elves in character creation that are Highborne, layers who pick that will know that these style, arcane effect are solely used by those on the Highborne faction, so presumably if you have them you belong there although it’s not exclusive, afterall, you could pick any combination of customisations oblivious not what they mean… especially if the Illidari customisations open up to other classes, like warlock, mage, rogue etc. Just like the undead customisations open up.
This at last would have a strong visible in-game presentation and presence of the night elves in their civilization factions in game - seeing night elves like this constantly. Farondis, Shend’rlaar, Darnassian And Nightborne/Highborne make this faction, Moonguard too are there. , and they are the Highborne faction, then there is the Illidari faction - that has demon hunters, all the new warlocks too, etc, and then the cenarion faction - which are mainly druids, but some priests too.
is how I would proceed form here. The idea is that you will see the 3 main contrasts of the night elves and they would have a powerful visual representation.
Currently only the druidic type long vigil / cenarion circle seems to have a strong night elf presentation - the rest either barely show up and are left hardly touched. when last did you go back to Suramar or Eldre’thalas? - but or see night elven mages and star calling priests? What about demon hunters/ When last did you see them involved with anything? or see a strong night elf presence there too in fel spaces?
If when you see night elves the majority of the time, it’s in a green forest with druids, and priests that look like they are priests of nature rather than Elune.
Watned much more than that.
Wanted night elves in action being badass - being the titanic race that WC3 manual says they are, that we see a far better show of in Wc3, and we read of them in WotA trilogy, Stormrage, Ilildan and Wolfheart novels ( although they weren’t quite as amazing in Wolfheart)
Wanted to see a showcase of night elves fully in their civilization side too - so a city, mages, powerful magic, civilians, a night city - Suramar is exactly that, but it’s no longer part of then night elves, and while a night elven sub-race, the Nightborne currently with the lore they’ve given don’t break the monotony of night elves feeling and looking like they are just forest elves and have no civilization or capability of it,
Wanted to see the night elves actually empowered and utilising that power to restore themselves - they still have the Well of Eternity, there is Elune and the Night warrior power - then there is Amirdrassil - perhaps representing a nature and magical boon - the aspects get their powers restored but the night elves get nothing? Immortality restored now they’d been selfless would have at last been a great story conclusion - and then using their power to at least secure their lands.
I expect night elves as a race with great power but a benevolent core are not going on conquest sprees with all their powers at their command, but they will restore their lands, and destroy those who who try to cease their lands, but otherwise that power they use against world threats to defend the world
This is what I expected. I also expected Malfurion to be involved in Amirdrassil, Tyrande appearing as High Priestess of Elune -moon goddess not nature goddess, also a powerful showing of Highborne, Moonguard, Demon hunters all pitching in because this is important. And having a powerful showing, rather than have them virtually do nothing, wed o everything, and they just there posing like the whole time except for 1 or 2 cutscenes.
An before Tyrande’s 's speech, it really seemed that they were settling the night elves into laid back forest elves - and discarding their core and in so doing the total of actually what made them unique.
Night Elves the wrong race for Nature Elf race
Dark elves alone are not unique, forest elves/wood elves too are not unique, they are an overused trope, as are high elves- although their are fans of all three… however night elves - that combine dark elf and wood elf, and have a novel night and star thing right there - now that sounds very interesting and unique in a very popular and heavily varied fantasy race - and the night elf fantasy - all of it, not just the forests bit was very popular with players, is very popular. NO where else in other fantasies including Warhammer and DnD have I seen night elves /star elves - why are they making the night elves’ who have this original focus, that is also good, why are they instead making the major focus them now the trees or the forest? It should be the night and the stars, and this is presented in in a dual arcane and nature focus so you see this in both lenses.
Night elves really interesting because of the seeming contrasts, and opposites, like a juxtaposition of contrasting ends that often seem like contradictions if you don’t know their story.
This is what I wanted to see.
Night elves origin, design, set up, story and presentation is far too mixed to now lob them to that forest elf exclusive trope, and another huge problem is people love the arcane and dark elf bits quite a lot… so why would you change it just to lump them in? If you wanted a pure forest elf race you have a sub-race to do that with, but why destroy something many people liked unless you yourself don’t care for it and are basically a blood elf fan developing the story, and just fine with night elves being crappy and low and nothing like the lore shows they can be.
IF you show the night elves as great, your players are going to want to see that, it doesn’t matter how far in the past it is, they want it. Rather than retcon and destroy it, have a care and keep what has worked and what you have done, they have bene retconning a lot of stuff fans like for what? it almost seems like it is to write a fanfic for new leads rather than keeping the integrity of the original story many loved. many loved night elves being both forest and city, they loved the idea of the kaldorei civilization/empire and high arcane magic as well as that of great druids in a deep forest. They loved the idea of a moon goddess and children of the stars, that felt elevated and mysterious - nuke that away just for druids and quickly what as interesting before will quickly become boring and people will toss away their lore books because they’d read it and they’ d go… well none of this is true, they’re not like this at all, it’s junk, they’ll toss books like the Chronicles and won’t dish out $49.99 for new ones knowing that they would overwrite all the old stuff they love.
It’s not about lowborne or Highborne - though I like your enthusiasm, all elves do rnage, and all elves love nature.
Farstriders are after your typical wood elf trope - your Legolas trope - whether they cast arcane arrows or not, there isn’t a distinction between them because arcane arrows are used… night elves also use arcane arrows, or you forget the heavy arcane presence in all the night elf classes shown in lore - whether mages, priests, druids, wardens etc.
Or you forget the sentinels are Elune warriors, an d are not just purely physical.
The truth is there are some aspects of the elves that haven’t had much visibility, and there are indications they are are quite prominent. There is quite a lot of lore for the Farstriders, the biggest high elf characters are part of that range, and the stories often cover their actions. I fell in love with Halduron way back there reading about him in the adventurers. That we don’t see a heavy blood elf presentation of them outside the starting experience where they feature heavily, lets you forget is also odd.
But Vereesa, Sylvanas, Alleria all carry that torch, and Lor’themar the leader of the blood elves is one, so for such a high calibre group it is surprising, and it is a wood elf branch…and that isn’t a bad thing, or undesirable, even if you don’t think much of it.
But then you don’t have to, you can love the magisters and not the blood knights nor the Farstriders. For the blood elves, my faves are the Farstriders and the Magisters - i do get a full on wood elf vibe and high elf vibe and a blood elf vibe through Rommath. And I’m fine with that. I think having multiple fantasies is important, makes them look less 1-dimensional.
So I am always dismayed when people try to put the forest elf side of the night elves as the only or main thing they are about when they have powerful dark elf fantasies and it’s much better to have more than one. Never see them oppose the Farstrdiers or the Light fantasy parts of the blood elves, but they always go for the arcane dark elf fantasy which has a huge part of the night elves and their history and origin all tied in them. Without the dark elf arcane side, the forest side is bland and boring and loses meaning. And then there is also the demon hunter fel side too which provides a different character type of night elf that fortunately isn’t villainous like the Naga and Satyr who also have an important role in the brand.
Sylvanas, Hauldoran, Lor’themar - all use/d elements of Arcana to aid them in battle.
Lowborns are your wood elves (night elves.) Blood Elves are your Arcane Rangers, through and through, since Void Elves are obviously not and Nightborne take on a different style of “Hunter.”
Not the same thing.
Arcane sorcery, by Thalassian standards is far more used than the scruffy lowborns. You confuse and purposefully manipulate the lore by trying to say that the magic of the priests and druids before Cata was Arcane-y Mage stuff, when it wasn’t.
That’s what lowborns are though. None arcane magical, forest elves. Nothing more, nothing less.
Highborne and their descendants are true users of the Arcane. Lowborns are just wood elves and should remain wood elves, moving forward. They were only brought in to be advisors to the Alliance. The sooner lowborn night elves return to that, the better. The lore is so much better without them.
Fel just isn’t important.
With a Sunwell loss on the horizon and how much lore lowborns have gotten over these past 8 years - I’d rather the fel lore for elves, actually returns to the Blood Elves, since it’s always been Blood Elf Warlocks who truly saved Silvermoon. They were the ones who got East Silvermoon up and running with the powers of the fel crystals.
Then we have their Illidari which are cool and all, but aren’t loyal to the Horde. Blood Elf Warlocks have always been more loyal to the Horde.
Night elves are arcane, nature and fel, and the fantasy of all 3 of these is powerful, and the night elves need to be visibly seen in these aspects as they are described in the lore, and the story books and the manuals etc.
Wc3 does show case 3 of these in terms of personnel, it doesn’t show case the mage… wotA largely showcases the mage and the priest - but the demon hunter - 1 person and the druid, also 1 person are equally prominent heroes.
when it comes to personnel it’s Night elves as Priests of Elune, sentinel archer/warriors, warden rogues, animal shapeshifting druids and powerful mages.
when it comes to aesthetics it’s night elves in highly advnaced magical night cities and night elves in undisturbed/touched by civilization forests - those are the two extremes they exist in, and I like that we have Suramar and Eldre’thalas for the cities and hope for a couple more, and we have Ashenvale, Amirdarssil and Val’sharah for the forests.
But a couple of things OFF here.
We don’t see night elves anywhere near enough in the city scape or the fel scape to strongly identify these settings with them. one night city that only the sub-race live in? the rest burnt? is not showing the kaldorei civilization well, not the current version anyway.
The forest, all of them are green… where are the purple/blue colours of the night?
So it’s nice to see a bunch of sentinels and d in that classic garb. but where are my bunch of Highborne and Moonguard? And where are my bunch of Illidari too?
So when they show us the night elves I want to see those groups assembled - like when they went to help Suramar - I wanted to see the sentinels, the druids, the wardens, the Illidari, the Highborne and the Moonguard - yes I know the Moonguard were with the nightfallen and at the time you were suppose to see them as two separate camps - but this is just an example.
It’s also nice to see night elves in a great forest, but it will also be nice to see night elves in a great night city - The great forest shouldn’t be the only place/setting, a great city should also be available because both are the fantasy .
I agree with you, but we have to face facts and we do. There’s no point waffling on about Suramar and crying “muh Suramar!!” because it’s ain’t happening. Allied races won’t be getting an update to their locations. So Suramar, for all intensive purposes, will be remaining a Horde Capital along with it’s neighbour of Highmountain.
The whole W3 angle with lots of Druids, Sentinels, Wardens and Priests are the Night Elves. They are what most players know about the Night Elves…if you didn’t play W3 and only joined for WoW, the first night elf you saw was a Druid…many people, night elf fans included, don’t relate to night elf mage in the way we do, because it’s not their big thing, but it’s clear that Blizzard don’t care for race/class combos that might have been the cool angle for some races back in the day.
Night Elf Mages and Blood Elf Warlocks are two of the best race/class combos we have by lore standards because one created an entire civilization (Night Elf Mages) and the other saved and restored much of the Northern reaches of a region (Blood Elf Warlocks) but Blizzard don’t care for either. They’ll throw in a night elf mage and blood elf warlock here and there as an easter egg and nothing more.
Shame that, the night elves should be known fully as well for Suramar, the Highborne, casting Moon Priestesses and great arcane magic as well as civilziation, as much as they are known for druids and sentinels in a forest and forest life, same with hte Illidari and demon hunter lot, it’s much fuller.
And we shouldn’t be silent about it. it is exactly the same that was with the druid in classic, blizzard mainly only presented and developed the druid as restoration, a far cry from the far cooler druid in WC3 and what we saw and read of Malfurion too in WotA - but players let them know this 1-track/1 spec presentation wasn’t good enough, it was boring, and they wanted the druid to be more - which basically was the druid to be the things it originally was.
It was the catalyst that led to each of the specs being viable for dungeons and raids in their roles, without it, we’d have druids only useable as restos to this day,…look how interesting balance, and feral and guardian are, and those specs though quite different are very much druids.
Exactly the same with the night elves, the arcane, civilization and Highborne fantasy was there from the start, and it is well loved and liked - the night version of the things humans and blood elves have in it’s unique star culture centred way and the forest part, and the fel demon hunter thing. they are all exciting, an different but also all night elven too.
I don’t think people should just ignore Suramar now, it has more lore for night elves than Darnassus and Eldre’thalas, it’s detrimental to the lore if we dot hat, and if we just ditch the night elven mage, the Highborne and that branch too -
Blizzard have to know how popular and desirable it is to fans, they really are shooting themselves in the foot by not developing and remaining both a popular and well liked aspect of the night elves… They directly benefit from this.
Sadly highlights a failing of blizzard given how much lore they’ve released, architectural sets, racial orientated themes for night elf mages, all to not show it in game - they are the ones that need to show it, all those who have read about it and seen the little we have love it… they loved the fantasy of the powerful and extremely skillful night elven Highborne, they loved the idea of a great elven civilization and when they saw Suramar and the moon and star themes, the night city, the elven stuff for the night elves civilization? they loved it.
The same goes for the Illidari and the demon hunters, it’s cool, it’s exciting, loved the style and the theme.
These are huge assets you want to show, especially for night elves, that become very samey very fast without this side. Also the charm of the forest side is greatly diminished without the contrast of the higher civilization.
There is more than one type of night elf and culture of night elf - there are the forest centred ones , but also the arcane and city centred ones, and the fel centred ones, - together they make the night elves, in their night civilization , night forest, night lifestyle… they need to show this, because it is this that is unique about them.
It would really be in their best interests to develop these more. With the void elves and high elves playing a larger role and more prominence , it opens the door for the fel to playa larger role amongst the blood elves through the warlocks as a distinguishing factor.
the distinguishing factor helps, but it doesn’t help to have just flea and no arcane and light… which is what some people think should be the case for night elves, because you have the druidism as a distinguishing factor, therefore there shouldn’t be arcane or fel - except that the night elves arcane is also itself distinguished both by the level of it and the star/moon influence in it, and that it is night based - this makes it a different flavour, and just because this is present in the sub-race , doesn’t mean it should be absent, any more that the fel being more visible in the blood elves means the arcane, the light and the wood elf like Farstriders (with arcane arrow casting capability) shouldn’t be visible.
There are people gunning for 1-trak for each race, it’s reductive and boring.
It doesn’t matter, because Suramar doesn’t matter now. Just like Highmountain, neither of these places actually matter so Blizzard have just made these regions “Horde” because the races who live there are now Horde. As noted in the Wrathion novella, Suramar is “deep Horde land” and that only means Highmountain is as well.
I don’t foresee this changing at any point. It’s a finished story…yes, they could have added more. Perhaps a Horde questline in BFA where you work with the Nightborne in order to protect the Tidestone of Gol’ganneth. You fail in that mission, but this is where the Nightborne also discover who the Naga are…an Easter Egg throwback to W3 where the Night Elf Watchers discovered who the Naga were.
It’s a done story. Blizzard finished it. It’ll appear now and then, such as the Vulpera recruitment questline…but it’s finished.
Of course they knew, back when Nightborne went Horde.
They admitted that one side would feel disappointed, but ultimately, they made the choice of the Horde because they knew “High Elves” were going Alliance.
For me, Nightborne on the Horde was so much better.
But it’s all about what the majority want.
When I see requests for Night Elves, it always harkens back to “Warcraft 3 Night Elves.” You can’t play dumb and pretend these people are including night elf mages in this. It’s clear they want what Grom Hellscream described. “The perfect warriors” as he put it.
Shen’dralar stuff, as it always has been, is just a side-branch to the overall. “Yeah, we’ll do a bit of shen’dralar stuff, throw a quote in here and there if we feel like it…” To me, Blizzard don’t like their inclusion…they don’t like the playable faction of night elf mages as a whole. It’s sad, but when you think…they prioritize Human, Nightborne, Blood Elf and Void Elf Mages over Night Elf Mages and this harkens back to MoP.
Having Darnassus locked down was the effort of a Human Mage. New Arcane discoveries on the Isle of Thunder was a Blood Elf Mage effort. Arcane Prisons was a Human and High Elf Mage effort. Blood Elf Mages swarmed all over the Broken Isles. Only Kirin Tor Night Elf Mages were present.
No Shen’dralar lore development was given…only in the BFA pre-patch where two appeared and then were killed by Sylvanas and then two more were maintaining the portal to Stormwind.
High Elves will no longer play a major role in anything. All of their lore will either go to the Void Elves, for Mage-like matters or Night Elves, for the Hunter/Warrior matters, as we saw in BFA with Shandris.
It should have been Vereesa Windrunner vs Blood Prince Dreven, but Void Elves and Night Elves are playable. I can’t believe how much they’ve rolled the High Elves back. I mean, they are literally just involved with a few mage things here and there, but nowhere near as prominent as they were back in WoTLK or MoP.
Blood Elves are the only visible Elves who use/d Fel Magic. To me, it makes sense to distinguish between night elves and blood elves, that where the night elves use Druidism, Blood Elves use Fel Magic.
Blood Elf Warlocks have potential to be the next version of the “Zin-Azshari Highborne”, but they remain more controlled, but just as arrogant. Shinfel Blightsworn, Aeda Brightdawn, Elynara - Silvermoon’s Chief Archaeologist - all Blood Elf Warlocks with a lot of power behind them.
I still don’t believe that blood elf farstriders are “wood elves” because they aren’t described like that. Night Elven Lowborn Sentinels are more of your “wood elves.”
Just because blood elf farstriders look like Legolas doesn’t mean they are Legolas. It just means that they look like him, but are far more leaning towards Arcane Magic, than the Lowborn Sentinels are.
Just let the “wood elf” be with the night elves. I know you hate it, but it’s just far more akin to Night Elf Sentinels. Blood Elf Farstriders fight in the same way as their own Magi and Soldiers and that is on the front lines. “Wood Elf” is all about hiding in the trees…which is exactly what Night Elves do when they first appear in W3.
Srsly, the extreme faction view is annoying the t*ts off me, it’s blocking fans from getting on board with proper racial developments.
Ultimately it shouldn’t matter much that a racial group is horde or alliance if they’re on both and you love that race more. If you love Pandaren, it’s not that consequential to you if you’re in the horde or alliance over the development of the race.
Azsuna a, Val’sharah and Suramar are al key night elf areas, whether these night elves are on the horde or not, it’s important to see kaldorei development there - whether it’s of the Quel’dorei, Shal’dorei or just plain ol normal vanilla kaldorei or even Illidari.
Whether some or all of the Nightborne being on the horde should not stop Kirin’tor or night elves being a part of their city , nor should it some how erase the Nightborne identity of being a kaldorei group in kaldorei civilization culture, and developing that as well as extending that
Anyway, there are several things whoever decided to do this have totally forgotten or not thought through
Who night elves really are
Where they are
They are not JUST a forest elf race, in fact, this is the second, not first part of them, and it’s like the lesser has become the major because they have enough cities galore and arcane magic galore in other races - so they ignore the vital part of the night elves and the unique nocturnal and star/moon version of both arcane magic and cities they bring, and the grand lore they have that defined them.
Purple elves, the colour of the arcane, born from the arcane, because the legacy of the race is from magic. An arcane goddess, with lunar and stellar magic also from the arcane, Moonwells and Well of Eternity, silver eyes and a name called the children of the stars.
Forest love is another wing, it was taught, and because their nature is benevolent, intelligent and curious, - they love nature too, but they also love magic.
Focusing only on the forest part is detrimental and antithetical to a race designed to have both an arcane magical civilization part and nature part.
Like the druid class, in classic, it kills much of the attractive ness of the class to only focus on resto spec, and ignore balance and feral (which is what happened in classic) - people loved the original wider fantasy of the class a lot.
Same with the night elves, their initial attraction was magic, difference is you saw forest aesthetic and read about city aesthetics, but the heavier lore with their civilization, and it fit their mould. you understood how they go to forest, but you k new their core, and you loved both.
People LOVE night elves dark elf high society aspect, as well as their forest elf gritty but sexy sentinel side with the hippie druid, and then the dark , gritty anti-hero cool demon hunter
These 3 aspects, all 3, not just the forest elf side are greatly loved, but blizzard have largely ignored 2 highly popular bits, and only largely showed one.
But night elves aren’t green, they are not born from the trees, their base is arcane magic, and we love this about them. the Moonguard, the grand civilization, the Highborne, the arcane stuff, is loved as is the forest part, the walking trees, the sexy hunter chicks, the Lunar arcane women - it fits right.
So night elf is the wrong race for a full on forest niche - and it is the wrong race for a full on arcane niche - this is why Nightborne is a sub-race is a good idea, and I think necessitates a second forest elf niche race like night elf worgen or a night elf connected Sylvar race or even the quadruped Cenarians as playable
But converting night elves, with their origin and diversity funnelled only into one aspect, destroys this race, reduces it, and makes it boring, Forest humble druid life and hunter chick becomes a lot more interesting when contrasted along a haughty or high society type night elf - it gives the race far greater depth and each, and when you get to the demon hunter you get another contrast because you get the benevolent type, high on ideals and morals contrasted with an anti-hero type, that’s not exactly evil, but will cross lines in order to destroy an even greater evil - it’s a moral contrast that the Illidari demon hunter has the priest/mage/druid kaldorei types who are noble, good or lawful good. A demon hunter is willing to get their hands very dirty to stop evil often at cost to himself, something a normal night elf will find horrific and never risk or inflict on themselves.
Can you not see blizzard how both the civilization arcane side of the night elves and the demon hunter side actually make the Night elves far more interesting than just hte forest side?
Can you not see how making night elves only forest elven based or majorly so, at odds with their arcane origin , Moon goddess, civilization foundation and development? It’s one thing to have been forced into nature state for the long vigil (this is the main group here) it’s another thing that the race has oved on and now can be broader but instead is locked inn. Notice I said at odds rather than contrast. contrast can only exist if the contrast
Where they are: A nature paradise for a race, is foolish and unrealistic. It may have made sense in a pre-civilization era, when they were the only peoples around and no one else was much developed. when there was no magic, and few tools that could chop down wood.
in a world, where there is strong magic, fire, , clever and advanced races around, you are foolish to to ignore a city you are more than capable of building, and then to make it out of something as fragile as wood. you’d have marble and stone re-inforced with magic and spell work to the best of your ability.
This is no longer an isolation period where you are a race entirely dedicated to hunting threats to bring down Azeroth. That faction is gone, so also is the faction that could afford to stay secluded in an advanced city and be untouched by events around them, advanced enough to say hidden - that too is also gone.
You will now need everything, all the power you can muster - whether it’s arcane through the Well of Eternity and Moonwellls, Elune your goddess or the world trees/great trees and the power through the emerald dream
You are on the brink of extinction, your civilization destroyed 10k years ago, and you’ve lost your lands and frosts too. in the Long vigil you had to restrict your magical usage and your purpose could dictate another path because you were isolated. this is not the case any more
You have allies, , lands to reclaim and defend, but also a civilization to build… you have enough of a variety to do so. you have your Highborne and city civilization types, that thrive of that, and you have your forest restoring types that thrive of that.
You are night elven you have both, you also need both, you should be seeing both available.