They’ve taken over several settlements in Uldum that had been left abandoned, ranging from Schnottz’s Landing to Orsis and the Temple of Uldum. Many of their settlements were then promptly overrun by Aqir, which is why they joined the Uldum Accord to begin with.
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Human settlers in Northrend are more Wild West than they are Viking, or anything else for that matter.
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Yeah, they’re very obviously based on trappers in the Wild West.
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For clan/tribal RP based in Northrend, ice trolls seem to be the most logical and fun option, not sure about orcs and tauren but I’d include them too. WoW humans just aren’t meant to be a primitive race living in clans.
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They’re all dead though. Or undead.
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It’s the Drakkari who are mostly wiped out(although Drakkari death knights can still be rp’ed as), however I see no reason why couldn’t there be a couple of small ice troll tribes littered across Northrend. OP mentioned he’s open to the idea of bubble RP, so in that case he could literally make up his own tribe as it’s been done many times in the troll RP community.
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If we take the core points here, living in Northerend, surviving of the land, not caring so much for modern technology and flashy magic, why couldn’t a group of Humans do that? Maybe they fled from something at some point or just fel like traveling and settled down there. But seing to the different races in wow, Horde has more of the typical tribal races, but I fail to see why it wouldn’t be doable with Humans or maybe Dwarves.
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Can you call them a nation? Possibly. They seem to be a unified people who had firm control over western Uldum before the Aqir came along.
Civilised? Not really. Yes, they say that they’ve changed and they are no longer hostile to the player factions but that alone does not make them civilised. No fundamental cultural or social advancement can be observed and they are still only squatting in abandoned structures without apparent ambitions to create anything other than makeshift tents.
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The issue here is the fact it’s equating Middle Eastern culture as uncivilised/primitive, when they evidently have the same technology as regular Stormwind humans. Why is medieval Europe-based humans who have little technology considered a society, but Arabian-inspired humans are hut-living savages?
Imo they aren’t primitive, they’re just bandits. Same level of society as any other human bandits we’ve met; if not far greater, considering they have established their own unique culture. Anyway I won’t derail anymore lmao
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I don’t think it’s derailing, the discussion does after all revolve around the humans of Warcraft and primitive ways they may or may not have.
The Wastewanders are a scavenging, pseudo-nomadic collection of humans that predominantly live in hovels and tents in a desert wasteland. By the very definition of the word, they are more primitive than humans living in a city like Stormwind, Kul Tiras or Dalaran. This has no bearing on their intelligence or them being uncivilised or not, although by both our and the humans of Azeroth’s standard they would probably come off as pretty brutish and uncivil. They do not seem to create their own items, instead stealing or salvaging what they can find which is not very indicative to any form of identity. They no longer seem to worship the Light in any distinct fashion, if they ever did during their pirate days (although they do seem to employ healers casting Light magic) or any other deity for that matter. With this in mind I would not equate them to our world’s middle-eastern culture, or any culture, at all. They did not even exist twelve or so years ago in Azeroth time, hardly a timeframe large enough to form a visually distinct identity for an entire group of people to the point you could call them a culture and prior to Battle for Azeroth they have been universally hostile to all outsiders. They are bandits and the only cultural approximation players have given them are due to the names Blizzard gave their leaders in vanilla WoW which were “caliph” and outside of the Wastewanders that title has only been used by an air elemental.
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I have 0 idea If this would ever materialize, but it was worth posting about for the discussion… which I’ve actually found fascinating, thankyou!
They went from living in nomadic camps to having actual settlements; taken from others, yes, but settlements nonetheless. I would call that a fundamental cultural and social advancement when previously they wandered the deserts as mere brigands, bandits and marooned pirates. Beyond that? We haven’t seen much, and we never will. Blizzard never cared much for those details, which is why Drustvar, Stormsong and Tiragarde are just about identical to one another despite having the largest cultural differences inside of one nation we have seen so far. Which in and of itself is mostly limited to the belief of witches in Drustvar and very devout worshipers in Stormsong, who created an identity so unique despite having only lived in Stormsong Valley for a little over a century, at most.
Lived in novels and tents, they’ve settled down in settlements as of BfA. Would they come off as brutish and uncivil at that point? Probably not, at least not anymore than, say, the Syndicate or Freehold. We’ve seen them create their own items, but considering they’ve previously lived under very harsh circumstances in the deserts of Tanaris, I can understand why most of their equipment would be looted - as well as the simple fact they were bandits. Do they not have a form of identity? Well, true enough. But let’s be honest here, neither does most of the human kingdoms when you compare them to, say, Stormwind. And considering they were pirates, and possibly related to Kul Tiras in that case, chances are they didn’t worship the Light to begin with. But despite having only existed for about eleven years, they have nonetheless forged a distinct identity that is unique from the other human kingdoms - if only ever barely hinted at, as are differences between every human kingdom beyond Dalaran, Kul Tiras and Gilneas.
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If it’s a discussion worth having, it’s a discussion worth having. We’ll go bit by bit.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sand_Dweller%27s_Refuge, as well as most of https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ankhaten_Harbor implies that they can, and do, in fact have some semblance of semi-permanent homes in the traditional sense; scavenged or otherwise, it shows they are not solely based within tents. Not that a level of society/civilisation is based upon their style of housing; being desert dwellers in a humid, hot environment would require open-air housing, just as the Tol’vir they scavenge from have. Nor does their nomadic nature make them innately primitive/uncivilised; would you say the same about the Romani?
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Wastewander_Coin
" Every Wastewander carries with them a unique coin, signifying their status as a member of our group."Because of their limited in-game presence it is hard to figure out whether or not they have their own bartering system, but the fact that they have developed seemingly their own naming system and style of dress (which is only otherwise seen, as you said, by wind elementals) would imply they would be very capable of craftmanship. They do, after all, have a quartermaster, who sells items unique to the Uldum Accord faction. (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Provisioner_Qorra) Not to mention, civilians (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Laborer_Mitchell)
Mute point; see Kul Tiras, who primarily worship the ocean.
The Wastewanders are among Gilneans and Kul Tiran as being one of the few human groups shown to have their own unique cultures/naming scheme (seeing as the other kingdoms are presented rather generically within the setting at the moment). Their culture is young, but to argue that it isn’t a culture would open up a whole different discussion about what your particular definition is. Especially considering they are displayed with having something unique about their society, unlike a lot of the other human nations (which are limited to food items, like Alterac Swiss).
Bear in mind, all of this information is directly from their Wowpedia page; doesn’t take much digging to figure out. The fact the Matthew Mercer-voiced leader of the group begins with “I’m sure you’ve had run-ins with the Wastewanders in the past, but I assure you that we are changed people.” implies they are a people, a micro-civilisation, and whether their means are foreign to Europran-based humans or not doesn’t imply they are primitive/savage/brutish.
I don’t necessarily feel passionate about Wastewanders in particular (the RP is very cringe); just the notion that, seemingly, some in this thread believe they are less civilized than other humans because they live in a desert, which is a very shaky trail of thought steeped in a lot of dark paths.
I feel I have to point out that by “hovel” I do mean a more permanent establishment, although one set up in previous ruins with limited materials. I do not understand your stance on Kul Tiras though, the Kul Tiran society heavily revolves around their tidesages and the Tidemother that symbolizes the ocean as a whole which can be seen in everything from their speech to their decor. I was remarking on the absence of any discernable cultural trait revolving worship and beliefs among the wastewanders, not that Light worship is inherently the de-facto religion of any human. In vanilla the notion of oceanic worship was pretty much limited to Naga and Murlocs before it was fleshed out to Kul Tiras as a whole in Battle for Azeroth.
I had completely forgotten about the coins, which seem to be a nice nod to their bandit ways as well as an identifying marking for members of the tribe so that is one point in the cultural basket.
I’m talking about the wastewanderers from World of Warcraft and not Middle Eastern culture. The Wastewanderers are no doubt based on Arabs but only on a very superficial level. The tribes of Arabia all had a distinct cultural identity with advanced relgious beliefs and developed social structures as well as art. The same can not be said of the wastewanderers. You are equating the two, not I.
Let’s look at Stormwind humans in comparison to wastewanderers. Stormwind can boast sophisticated architechture, agriculture, magic, blacksmithing, shipbuilding, art, religion, state organisation, an organised military, etc.
I also want to stop derailing the thread now but I won’t let it stand that you accuse me of calling Middle Eastern culture uncivilised/primitive. That’s a gross misrepresentation of what I said.
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This does not constitute as a fully functional civilization.
There has been no mention of a King or monarch of any breed among them. Don’t forget that their former ‘Caliph’ was a bandit and the wastewanders were a band of bandits.
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If you want to be nitpicky, even when they were still bandits wandering Tanaris, they were, by literal definition, a civilisation. But by just quoting that part you are also missing where I said that beyond just merely taking over these villages, they’ve also settled down in these villages rather than merely taking them over, they’re trading with their neighbours, their leader has stated that they are a changed people, they regard Uldum as their home and have made it clear they want to fight to defend it from the Aqir as much as the Ramkahen.
Hence a king in all but name, because I’ve no idea what else to refer to him as. He’s the leader of the Wastewanders and seems to have full authority amongst and over them.
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There seems to be an far higher standard given to the Wastewanders in particular to be classified as a society/culture, whereas nations like Alterac get away with seemingly only having a single settlement, because we accept the fact that the in-game world is without a doubt far bigger/deeper than the one we are presented with in-game. I feel the Wastewanders are presented as having as much culture as a lot of the other human nations, because of the fact they very clearly have their own naming system, hierarchy (bandit-based or not), style of dress, and even a racial mount (camels and vultures). I’m not sure what else they need to convince you; I can’t think of any art/music/craftsmanship that comes specifically from say Arathi. They are a young society but they possess all of the traits of a fledgling society, as opposed to a primitive tribe like you seem to be convinced of.
Wastewanders are former pirates, in the same way Kul Tirans are former colonists, Arator are former tribesmen, etc. Every society has to start somewhere, and the fact the Wastewanders have developed a society in a little over a decade signifies their important their culture is for them. They are seemingly the only peoples on Azeroth with a Middle Eastern-inspired aesthetic, in terms of their weaponry, clothing, and naming conventions. This isn’t just them being inspired by Tol’vir, seeing as they had this aesthetic back in their bandit days. What else do they need to be seen as relevant to you? Why is the bar for a society so high on them in particular?
It’s an overreaction to think I’m calling anyone in this thread a racist. I’m just seeing very little in terms of an argument against the fact that they are a society/culture, besides their living conditions (which has very much improved) and the fact they live in a desert. You can understand why that can be viewed as incredibly problematic; not that I’m suggesting Blizzard did a good enough job with them either. It’s worth asking yourselves why it is that the Middle Eastern humans in particular have to do so much more to prove to you that they’re a genuine culture, when the other low-technology societies get that title for free.
I don’t see either party being convinced of much, so I feel it’s an agree to disagree. I doubt either of us are after Uldum RP anytime soon.
Now, to be fair. Assuming this single settlement in Strahnbrad, if we look at a map of Alterac pre-Second War, Ravenholdt Manor and possibly Tarren Mill were both part of Alterac. Their northern border with Lordaeron was right outside of Andorhal, so all the land south of that city was part of Alterac.
Also, unrelated tangent, but I have always wondered why so many people
want to seemingly depict the ancient Arathi as fur clad barbarians ala Sigmar himself, when artwork depicting soldiers from the Arathi Empire fighting in the Troll Wars as wearing what appears to be plate armour.
Don’t worry, I’m firmly of the belief that ancient human civilisation (pre-Light/early Light) is something I wish we had far more of in terms of history. I wasn’t suggesting Arathi were in any way uncivilised, just using them as an example that no human nation on Azeroth has seemingly been given “art” to display in-game. Interchangeable with Lordaeron/Alterac etc. I do wish we learned more about the Arathi Empire’s beliefs before the Light, the paganism of the scattered Arathi tribes.