that guy is clearly true wow fan, because I see his idea of MMORPG games, he doesn’t play retail, that tells me all, but for sure he gave up giving his ideas because no retail lover will give him free option to express his ideas, they will punch you 3 times more then you punch them, that’s for sure, thats what retail lovers do.
But don’t get me wrong, I love retail too, but only while playing casual BGS, no other content do I enjoy because it sucks and if it doesn;t suck first 2 weeks, it sucks later because how repetitive it is.
I wouldn’t mind some oldschool stuff like reps actually being reps instead of a grinding mechanic. But other stuff like unnecessarily tedious leveling or having to pay the trainer to reset talents is a hard no for me.
Yep i still don’t like that changed
BFA was way ahead of shadowlands in terms of Q design and daily emissaries
I still don’t understand why would they go from that to daily Quests
We just wanted to remove AP from wq to not grind them but i liked that WQ were rewarding like easy 1 elite kill for few hundreds gold etc
many times it was giving weapon so it was very easy to gear up Alts with that system…
Not really. To max Enlightened rep, if you want to, 3 WQs a day. If you need to farm flux, you don’t even need to set foot in ZM for it, just do your usual content and it will add up. Same with valor/honor for upgrades.
The same dungeons, at the same difficulty, over and over and over again… if you find that kind of thing fun. If I needed to ‘farm gold’ in retail (which I don’t because retail throws gold at us), I could do the same thing, but faster.
I can’t comment on populated, but having played in TBC, I can say with 100% certainty that the levelling grind isn’t fun.
Like I said earlier, 9.2 is much better in this regard than 9.1 and 9.0 were. There is really no reason to hit max Enlightened rep, however doing the 3 dailies plus the travelling and picking them up will probably run you around 20 minutes by the time you get through getting there, picking it up, travelling where you need to go, doing it (which takes almost no time), and then getting back. Multiply that up by like 150 days for a season and it’s 50 hours! But granted nobody needs to do this, however they did need to do something very similar to this in 9.1, which is why I quit.
We were discussing how much time it takes to get there and keep your character up to speed, not the quality of that content.
However, M+'s way of doing difficulty isn’t exactly the most riveting thing in the world. I fail to find a clear winner in either of those cases - they both suck.
12 million people disagree - and that’s a low bar. 12 million people at least spent 250-300 hours doing exactly that at least once and loved it. We know that. It is far more than a grind if you pick a server where the levelling game is working as intended, i.e. it is populated with low level characters. If the world empties the levelling is no longer fun - it relies on other players wholly to function.
He hits the nail on the head as to how it’s enjoyable, although he doesn’t quite understand the why. Nevertheless, it’s worth a listen - and I know you’re going to roll your eyes a few times there, but try.
There is a reason to get exalted Enlighted rep and that’s the infinite augment rune. It’s the reason I’ve done it on 3 characters. However, it doesn’t require dailies, just WQs. As you said, doing the quests themselves takes ‘almost no time’, which means that’s how long the ‘daily chores’ take. (The daily quests are mainly done for sandworn relics, and the only reason you need to farm those is to buy gear pieces to convert to tier, if you’re not getting it from anywhere else.)
Personally, I enjoy challenging myself and improving my skill as a player. M+ with it’s infinitely scaling difficulty and changing affixes, provides that challenge for me. Running the same dungeons on HC, on repeat, would not.
Do we know it? Or do we assume they loved it simply because they did it? Maybe what drew them to vanilla WoW was the novelty of being able to create a character, just like in a solo RPG, and then go out in a huge world where there were - OMG - other people controlling characters who were doing exactly the same thing. And that other character you met while out questing wasn’t something generated by the game, but an actual real person sitting in their own home, controlling their own character, and interacting with you. How amazing and awesome and exciting. THIS was what the internet was about.
That’s what drew me to WoW in the early days. The gameplay itself was boring, but the fact of playing a fantasy character in a fantasy world populated by all these people doing the same thing was mindblowing.
Well, the novelty of that has well and truly worn off now. That the fantasy world exists, and that we play with other people controlling their own fantasy characters, are things we accept as normal. The wonder that first brought me and many others to WoW has passed. I need something to replace that, or I’ll just get bored and find something else to do. That’s why classic will never keep my interest.
(TBC actually wasn’t enough to keep my interest on its own. I used to play on a laptop, sitting in front of the TV, and play WoW while watching TV and chatting with my partner.)
Nah, I’m not going to roll my eyes. He said pretty much what I said. Amazing world, amazing depth, amazing new experience that we hadn’t had before. But that was 18 years ago. It’s no longer new, and we need something more.
Ah yes, the augment rune. Well, it’s very likely to be more expensive than just buying runes unless you do literally thousands of M+'s, but OK.
I think it is very disengenious to say that the activity only takes the time to complete the objective of the quest and to ignore the travel to and from it, not to mention even the basic stuff like getting in front of the PC, booting it up, and logging in. If you’re doing dailies as opposed to a long quest chain you’re going to spend a lot more time booting it up and logging in unless you already play every day - and if you do any argument that Classic takes more time is meaningless because you’re already playing it obsessively.
And M+ is, by far the least interesting way to offer increasing difficulty. And making multiple difficulties of the raids is hardly better. I think what they’re doing in season 4 is very interesting and I hope the experiment succeeds.
There are so many games that understand that exploration and world should not stop as skill increases. Although less resources ought to be devoted to the very top end, the very top end should, all the same, have hand-crafted and interesting, difficult experiences. No World of Warcraft expansion has gotten this right, although tBC in its original incarnation (aka with people being less skilled at that point) got it mostly right.
Of course the skill gap in modern WoW is much too great as well because the default UI and keybinding set up fully assumes you’re playing the 2004 version of the game.
Well, that’s exactly it, and in fact we do know it. There was armory data for the time, though I will not scour the internet to find 14 year old data points for you I’m afraid, that showed at least 10 million characters making it to 80, and they didn’t mine anything about China because it was completely independently hosted and the expansions were all sorts of messed up and whatnot at the time, and it is well known that WoW had 12 million subscribers for about a year, actually excluding China as well. Even if they didn’t reach max level they certainly were playing the levelling game quite a lot.
Nono, you don’t understand. WoW’s gameplay is not just the combat. WoW’s gameplay is also the chatbox, the world, the reward loop, the characters, the progression, and all the rest of it. WoW’s gameplay is informed by 4 design pillars, which have been repeatedly presented by old devs and now even by the Classic team itself. In simple terms:
Sense of world
Sense of community
Great combat
Constant stream of content.
Zooming in on the 3rd of those 4 pillars and just saying “Yep, that’s the gameplay, and now it’s better” is completely missing the point of the game and is in fact a really great way to reach the conclusion that M+ was the right move. It zooms in on combat, much of it in point of fact broken by extreme class imbalance, at the cost of literally everything else.
If you’re taking it for granted you’ve overlooked something because it’s pretty much gone. I guess you didn’t even notice how your 5000+ almost entirely open world game has been reduced to playing with just a few people in the same 10 dungeons on repeat all while finding your groups entirely through a game browser and really finding the world mostly an inconvenience. We’ve lost a lot, and where we haven’t lost things outright we’ve instead got a lack of content updates. Several parts of WoW are still literally stuck in a 2007 state in terms of their lore. Virtually anything you do is a huge exercise in time travelling.
I will grant retail one major victory: The low difficulty of Classic is indeed a big problem for modern WoW players simply because of the sheer amount of practice we all have, and the combat is consequently quite a bit more interesting. In every other respect it loses in my eyes.
Why make a new thread to complain people disagreed with you on your old one? This is the basis of a conversation.
Personally, I love old school MMOs - I still occasionally play Lineage 2 in private servers, I played Classic for a while, and the greatest thing ever is that these games, the old school MMOs are still here to play.
I also enjoy action MMOs and I love WoW’s current moment to moment gameplay. Literally all problems with the game are with the grand systems, the progression mechanics and all that. The action, the combat is some of the best in the genre.
So if we have the old school MMOs, and if we have the “new school ones”, why should we only have the old school? Why not… have both and play both?
I would love Classic+ content, I would love for Blizz, after Wrath Classic to release an original expansion for Classic that values its old school spirit, and hell - keep the old school graphics as well.
The thing that ruins WoW’s “RPG feel” isn’t the pace of the combat. It’s the systems, the mandatory farms that don’t make intrinsic sense. Killing bosses to get gear makes intrinsic sense. Killing bosses to get conduit upgrades doesn’t make intrinsic sense.
You were just wrong in the other thread. A manifestation of nostalgia and how we should always go back, rather than move forward. Especially when “going back” is literally possible by you clicking Classic.
Nostalgia is not good. Shadowlands is not good either, but making it good doesn’t always mean going back. Sure, it means undoing some mistakes (like removing talent trees), but overall the game needs to move forward.
But that’s a good advice. Classic is fine, it is fun, and if it is the game you want to play, why not suggest you go play it?
The reason why Shadowlands is bad is not that it is too fast paced. People LOVE the fast pace - this is why Legion was so successful. It’s that the progression systems are awful, there are too many currencies and grinds and garbage to slow you down and force you to do content you don’t like doing.
None of this would be fixed if the game was slowed down - it would just be made worse, because it would take you even longer to get through this slog.
Sorry, mate - but you wrong. And I am saying this as a lover of old school MMOs who still plays those hardcore games. And I think people on these forums who have noticed the stuff I write all the time know how much I love old-school games. But the future isn’t in looking backwards.
There are lots of things I do every day. I guess I must be an obsessive kind of person (in your eyes).
In your opinion. Other people are not you. Astonishing, I know, but there it is.
Ah, no. You’re not actually responding to what I said, are you? I talked about the reasons WHY so many people played, and played as much as they did, back then. You respond with some random stuff about data showing that they did.
Ah, I see. I don’t understand what it was that drew me to WoW in the first place. I need you to explain to me that my motivations were nothing like what I imagined them to be. Of course. I don’t even know what I’m thinking from one minute to the next.
/sarcasm
I’ve overlooked nothing. You see, over time you get used to things being as they are.
When I first moved to Spain (from the UK) back in 2009, the blue skies and sun and lack of rain were amazing. It was all so exciting and wonderful. Now, more than a decade later, the sun is still there, the sky is still blue, and there’s less and less rain every year, but I don’t think it’s exciting and wonderful any more. It just IS.
That’s what all the early stuff from WoW (the world itself, creating a character and being part of a huge group of other players) is like now, 18 years after WoW launched. It isn’t exciting and wonderful any more. It just IS.
You can’t get back the initial excitement and wonder that you felt when discovering something new because IT ISN’T NEW ANY MORE. You may be happy forever stuck in a loop reliving the past, but I’m not. I want something more from my online gaming.
Popgligor is one of the frist originals i debated this about as far as shadowlands goes at least.