Though the troll might have a point regarding the industrial progression of Kul Tiras. Without Ashvane Kul Tiras may have been much poorer, and would probably not have modern weapons available. Even her Azerite shenannigans might have been profitable in the long run, since the 8.1 war campaign shows us that Kul Tiras managed to put the powerful ressource to use. The Alliance suddenly had a great Azerite deposit, which would have been quite hard for them to get otherwise, considering how much more squeamish they were with mining the ressource than the Horde.
Of course the game shows us poor children being forced to work... but it isn't like they wouldn't have had to work in a pre-industrial Kul Tiras. I'm sure some of them wouldn't just be worse off without jobs, they might have starved! And if the kul tiran economy grows further, I'm sure the use of inefficient workers like children won't be interesting anymore, in the long run.
Capitalism!
28/10/2018 17:17Posted by WimbertEven her Azerite shenannigans might have been profitable in the long run, since the 8.1 war campaign shows us that Kul Tiras managed to put the powerful ressource to use. The Alliance suddenly had a great Azerite deposit, which would have been quite hard for them to get otherwise, considering how much more squeamish they were with mining the ressource than the Horde.
Good thing the Horde war campaign turn those plans to dust by stealing ALL gathered Azerite plus their weapons from their stocking place and blow the rest up. Also breaking Ashvane out together with her crew. Much better than the 8.0 journey of the swimming corpses.
Okay, as I sense this turning into a MASS political debate after Wimberts response I’m gonna swiftly escape this thread. Good luck though guys!
Of course y’all will side with Wimbert because half the story forums brown nose him :) have fun
Of course y’all will side with Wimbert because half the story forums brown nose him :) have fun
28/10/2018 17:21Posted by TelriemOkay, as I sense this turning into a MASS political debate after Wimberts response I’m gonna swiftly escape this thread. Good luck though guys!
Of course y’all will side with Wimbert because half the story forums brown nose him :) have fun
Of course we do tho! Wimbert is nice and reasonable.
28/10/2018 17:21Posted by TelriemOkay, as I sense this turning into a MASS political debate after Wimberts response I’m gonna swiftly escape this thread.
Hey, even marxists should agree that capitalism is a natural step upwards from feudalism on the way to communism!
And don't mock Wimbert the Wise! Or... erm... I'll use my power against you and... erm.... mock you back?
28/10/2018 17:01Posted by TelriemDon’t try me, I studied this bullshIZ for two years sadly.
I will, I always enjoy a discussion about political theory. I've had to read my fair share of communist literature as well, so don't worry, I'm in the same boat as you are.
28/10/2018 17:01Posted by TelriemThe word was coined by Karl Marx (the guy who literally made up communism in his book - the communist manifesto) to describe class inequality in all society, bourgousie being the ruling class (1%) and the only way to remove that being to establish communism.
While Marx certainly gave an additional definition to the term, it has been used way before him. The word itself is French, without an equivalent word in the English language.
Marx himself described the bourgeoisie as a ruling class (apart from the aristocracy which was, according to Marx, merged with the bourgeoisie), and when we're talking about them in marxist context, we're talking about the group in relation to the class struggle and the process of alienation, etc. The bourgeoisie is then the class that owns the means of production, including the working class.
However, if we take the term out of its context, we're suddenly talking about something similar to Marx' definition, but also something different. Everyone who is not of noble birth but is still wealthy and a citizen of the city/nation they live in, is member of the bourgeoisie. In Ancient Sparta, the homoioi would be the bourgeoisie; in Athens, the richer citizens. In the Late Medieval era, everyone who wasn't of noble birth nor a cleric but was still wealthy would be a member of the bourgeoisie.
You see my point? While Marx redefined the word, it had been used before him, and to describe a different group. The word 'power' for example is not necessarily Nietzschean, Marxist, post-structuralist, etc., neither is the word "class", as it had been used in the past as well. And the same goes for the bourgeoisie.
Well it’s either she-of-many-chins. An old hag. Or some exile with bipolar disorder.
The Kul Tirans should accept Ashvane as their rightful ruler and become members of the Horde.
The Kul Tirans should accept Ashvane as their rightful ruler and become members of the Horde.
You claim that Ashvane cares about Kul Tiras first and foremost, and yet she devastated the nation. What's your excuse?
28/10/2018 17:41Posted by Theronarum28/10/2018 17:01Posted by TelriemDon’t try me, I studied this bullshIZ for two years sadly.
I will, I always enjoy a discussion about political theory. I've had to read my fair share of communist literature as well, so don't worry, I'm in the same boat as you are.28/10/2018 17:01Posted by TelriemThe word was coined by Karl Marx (the guy who literally made up communism in his book - the communist manifesto) to describe class inequality in all society, bourgousie being the ruling class (1%) and the only way to remove that being to establish communism.
While Marx certainly gave an additional definition to the term, it has been used way before him. The word itself is French, without an equivalent word in the English language.
Marx himself described the bourgeoisie as a ruling class (apart from the aristocracy which was, according to Marx, merged with the bourgeoisie), and when we're talking about them in marxist context, we're talking about the group in relation to the class struggle and the process of alienation, etc. The bourgeoisie is then the class that owns the means of production, including the working class.
However, if we take the term out of its context, we're suddenly talking about something similar to Marx' definition, but also something different. Everyone who is not of noble birth but is still wealthy and a citizen of the city/nation they live in, is member of the bourgeoisie. In Ancient Sparta, the homoioi would be the bourgeoisie; in Athens, the richer citizens. In the Late Medieval era, everyone who wasn't of noble birth nor a cleric but was still wealthy would be a member of the bourgeoisie.
You see my point? While Marx redefined the word, it had been used before him, and to describe a different group. The word 'power' for example is not necessarily Nietzschean, Marxist, post-structuralist, etc., neither is the word "class", as it had been used in the past as well. And the same goes for the bourgeoisie.
Even though this discussion has no place on a WoW forum it is interesting and id have to say you bested me in this case, damn you!
Very interesting read too.
28/10/2018 17:47Posted by AeulaWell it’s either she-of-many-chins. An old hag. Or some exile with bipolar disorder.
The Kul Tirans should accept Ashvane as their rightful ruler and become members of the Horde.
This reminds me of the time that everybody theorised that KT humans would be horde and MH orcs would be Alliance for... some reason?
28/10/2018 16:39Posted by Theronarum
I'd like to propose that Therazane becomes be the undisputed Queen of Azeroth, because of her enormous belly.
The only thing Therazane should become is a candidate on the shortlist for bariatric surgery because obesity is DISGUSTING.
I do wonder if Ashvane was just pretending to be Katherine´s friend all along and was always driven by greed and thirst for power, or if she truly cared for Katherine in the past but was mentally broken by grief after her husbands tragic death at Theramore. If it`s the latter, it would make her much more sympathetic, for what is worth it anyway.
28/10/2018 21:55Posted by ArcturI do wonder if Ashvane was just pretending to be Katherine´s friend all along and was always driven by greed and thirst for power, or if she truly cared for Katherine in the past but was mentally broken by grief after her husbands tragic death at Theramore. If it`s the latter, it would make her much more sympathetic, for what is worth it anyway.
Considering she was nobility and all, quite sure she always had those wonderful characteristics.
Still waiting for her to sing "poor unfortunate soul"... as long as she didnt do that, she is far from perfect
28/10/2018 22:10Posted by XiaopawStill waiting for her to sing "poor unfortunate soul"... as long as she didnt do that, she is far from perfect
That's why I wanted her to be a follower of Azshara! She could have perfected her look by becoming empowered as a sea monster!
28/10/2018 22:16Posted by Wimbert28/10/2018 22:10Posted by XiaopawStill waiting for her to sing "poor unfortunate soul"... as long as she didnt do that, she is far from perfect
That's why I wanted her to be a follower of Azshara! She could have perfected her look by becoming empowered as a sea monster!
I didnt know how much I needed this, until you mentioned it,
BLIZZ YOU NEED TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN
So I can get 'sea' legs in trade for my voice? Don't know... Why my voice?28/10/2018 22:16Posted by Wimbert28/10/2018 22:10Posted by XiaopawStill waiting for her to sing "poor unfortunate soul"... as long as she didnt do that, she is far from perfect
That's why I wanted her to be a follower of Azshara! She could have perfected her look by becoming empowered as a sea monster!
She always wanted power. That's why she made katherine look bad while sabotaging defenses (she worked together with Azshara to make the fleet be lost in a magical storm for example). The moment she was found out she didn't care anymore whether Kul'tiras would be reduced to ash, be in ruins or intact aslong as she got her way. Just the typical manipulative, greedy and power hungry nobel who doesn't care for the general people at all.28/10/2018 21:55Posted by ArcturI do wonder if Ashvane was just pretending to be Katherine´s friend all along and was always driven by greed and thirst for power, or if she truly cared for Katherine in the past but was mentally broken by grief after her husbands tragic death at Theramore. If it`s the latter, it would make her much more sympathetic, for what is worth it anyway.
28/10/2018 17:51Posted by Telriem28/10/2018 17:41Posted by Theronarum...
I will, I always enjoy a discussion about political theory. I've had to read my fair share of communist literature as well, so don't worry, I'm in the same boat as you are.
...
While Marx certainly gave an additional definition to the term, it has been used way before him. The word itself is French, without an equivalent word in the English language.
Marx himself described the bourgeoisie as a ruling class (apart from the aristocracy which was, according to Marx, merged with the bourgeoisie), and when we're talking about them in marxist context, we're talking about the group in relation to the class struggle and the process of alienation, etc. The bourgeoisie is then the class that owns the means of production, including the working class.
However, if we take the term out of its context, we're suddenly talking about something similar to Marx' definition, but also something different. Everyone who is not of noble birth but is still wealthy and a citizen of the city/nation they live in, is member of the bourgeoisie. In Ancient Sparta, the homoioi would be the bourgeoisie; in Athens, the richer citizens. In the Late Medieval era, everyone who wasn't of noble birth nor a cleric but was still wealthy would be a member of the bourgeoisie.
You see my point? While Marx redefined the word, it had been used before him, and to describe a different group. The word 'power' for example is not necessarily Nietzschean, Marxist, post-structuralist, etc., neither is the word "class", as it had been used in the past as well. And the same goes for the bourgeoisie.
Even though this discussion has no place on a WoW forum it is interesting and id have to say you bested me in this case, damn you!
Very interesting read too.
Too interesting read to find it on WoW forum. As a former citizen of a comminist country I strongly sugest you to not believe everything you read in books or see on youtube videos, there is much fallacy, lies and missinformation around in every direction with pros and cons.
Obvious villain aside I actually agree with OP she is pro active and successful leader. And your list of her achievements due to her competence alone is enough to respect her.
Zul - also obvious villain aside - was also incredibly competent and it's a shame that he forsake all the privilage, honors and power because he so much wanted for trolls to rule world again that he was willing to destory everything that defined them and made them great. Should he used his gift and exceptional planning against the Horde and Alliance I think that G'huun wouldn't be needed for Zandalari to expand.
I haven't met character that was this cunning like him. Pity he was obvious villain and not dangerous right hand of Rastakhan. I can deffinietly see why the emperor wanted to have him on his side.
Zul - also obvious villain aside - was also incredibly competent and it's a shame that he forsake all the privilage, honors and power because he so much wanted for trolls to rule world again that he was willing to destory everything that defined them and made them great. Should he used his gift and exceptional planning against the Horde and Alliance I think that G'huun wouldn't be needed for Zandalari to expand.
I haven't met character that was this cunning like him. Pity he was obvious villain and not dangerous right hand of Rastakhan. I can deffinietly see why the emperor wanted to have him on his side.
30/10/2018 11:55Posted by ZakkaruObvious villain aside I actually agree with OP she is pro active and successful leader. And your list of her achievements due to her competence alone is enough to respect her.
Zul - also obvious villain aside - was also incredibly competent and it's a shame that he forsake all the privilage, honors and power because he so much wanted for trolls to rule world again that he was willing to destory everything that defined them and made them great. Should he used his gift and exceptional planning against the Horde and Alliance I think that G'huun wouldn't be needed for Zandalari to expand.
I haven't met character that was this cunning like him. Pity he was obvious villain and not dangerous right hand of Rastakhan. I can deffinietly see why the emperor wanted to have him on his side.
Honestly the treatment of Zul and Rastakhan is pretty bad.