PTR Spoiler/Discussion Thread (Part 3)

[Elenthas-argent-dawn (Elenthas)]

@Meronspell-argent-dawn

I would argue in MoP we were still in the period of Demons as completely, objectively evil satanic beings in all regards still though

Evil doesn’t mean they’re lying all the time though, and if we’re referring back to other external references (“satanic”) then there’s a lot of stuff where bound demons are compelled to speak truthfully, and not lie, as part of their bindings.

The quest doesn’t specify the details of the contract, we can’t say for certain, but if Kanrethad bound this doomguard to answer his questions - which he seems to have done so - it would be reasonable there’d be a truth-telling clause in there.

@Meronspell-argent-dawn

That definitely wasn’t the lore-case for 30-odd years until very, very recently when you take into account how long Titan lore has actually been around. They’ve given birth to trillions of planets and trillions of lifeforms upon them, protecting them from external and interdimensional threats all the while and ridding the universe of entirely-objectively-evil forces like the Void and Demons.

They did so in search of World Souls. Aggramar choosing to intervene on Draenor where there wasn’t a world soul is called out as unusual. And a bunch of those planets and life forms were burned in the Makers’ fire, per Algalon, to purge the corruption of the Old Gods. Again, they don’t treat World Souls the same way.

The act of creating life isn’t a moral good all on its own, so I can’t say I care for that explanation, especially if it’s to help nurture the world souls and help them grow. Means to an end.

You’re completely wrong about the “30 years” stuff too, sorry. The titans were barely touched on, if at all, in WC1+2. They might have been creator myths or something.

I don’t remember them getting anything notable in WC3 (maybe in the manual), but they only really started showing up in WoW from vanilla onwards. We had vague stuff about them in vanilla, not a whole lot, little to speak of in TBC since we were on Draenor, and then Wrath introduced Algalon with his deal. That gives like ~3 years of vagueries before we started dealing with the Titan lore properly.

We cannot say with any straight face that this latest information is a shift in the Titan’s portrayal. It is a continuance of it. They are not malicious, but they don’t care about mortals, not in any grand scheme, and if it means maintaining a world soul they’ll sacrifice a planet - whether their lives or their memories - to do so.

[Jebanza-argent-dawn]

@Elenthas-argent-dawn

they only really started showing up in WoW from vanilla onwards. We had vague stuff about them in vanilla

The most we even knew of the titans in Vanilla came from the dwarves. And that was mostly in the stage of pure mythology. Faith in their creator, KhazGoroth, and their various titan excavations across the world. Uldaman was pretty much the most exposure to the titans we had and that was only to their leftover creations, giving the impression of silent distant gods and the forgotten caretakers of their legacy.

[Jenit-argent-dawn (Jenit)]

I think the biggest early source for Titans is the old RPG from 2003 so after War3 but before WoW, likely developed concurrently with both.

I don’t think they were exactly what they are in WoW yet in that either so the big sources will be Vanilla/Uldaman and Wotlk/Stormpeaks/Ulduar.

[Hood-argent-dawn]

Exploring characters of such magnitude is always a mistake.
Mistake here,
Mistake in Dragon Age
Ultimately I feel like it leaves the setting so… feeling so tiny. Whereas leaving divines, creators, gods, all the cosmic power creatures ambigious and distant, leaves players guessing and it’s always more interesting. Especially when people can be freely wrong in the interpretation.

[Moridunum-argent-dawn (Moridunum)]

@Hood-argent-dawn

Exploring characters of such magnitude is always a mistake.

See Elune.

Every lore added to Elune is just a hot mess of cow💩, and they cannot do either Elune or the Titans justice without pissing off fans or retconning the setting itself for it.

Just leave everything from Wild-Gods/Demi-Gods and upwards out of your writing, unless its a real must, and even then keep it vague and ambigious.

I feel like trying to tie down characters of such magnitude is never a good idea for any setting. They tried it 1.5 times now(Pantheon of Death and Elune) and they failed miserably.

[Aerilen-argent-dawn (Aerilen)]

@Hood-argent-dawn

Exploring characters of such magnitude is always a mistake.
Mistake here,
Mistake in Dragon Age
Ultimately I feel like it leaves the setting so… feeling so tiny. Whereas leaving divines, creators, gods, all the cosmic power creatures ambigious and distant, leaves players guessing and it’s always more interesting. Especially when people can be freely wrong in the interpretation.

I don’t mind the inclusion of gods or higher powers, I really don’t. Gods tussling over gaining followers or over nebulous gains can be fine. What probably hasn’t helped them or the setting is the revolving door of CDevs; you see it’s the FIRST ones really. The titans? Trifling gnomes really…

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with painting the titans as cold, distant and aloof. But this isn’t a consistent thing.

[Moridunum-argent-dawn (Moridunum)]

Thank Elune the First Ones are sort of out of the picture now, lmao

[Distantpeak-argent-dawn (Distantpeak)]

@Moridunum-argent-dawn

picture now

I’d say “for now”.
They’ll come crawling back.

[Moridunum-argent-dawn (Moridunum)]

I would dislike this comment if I could!

[Hood-argent-dawn]

@Aerilen-argent-dawn

I don’t mind the inclusion of gods or higher powers, I really don’t. Gods tussling over gaining followers or over nebulous gains can be fine.

I think this is fabulous.
Inclusion of gods, religion and fights over both are great for a setting. But I think gods should be distant players who assert their influence through vague means.

But when you stare at the Seat of Gods and find it populated by 7 smurfs, the setting immediately feels lesser to me through that alone.

[Aerilen-argent-dawn (Aerilen)]

@Hood-argent-dawn

But when you stare at the Seat of Gods and find it populated by 7 smurfs, the setting immediately feels lesser to me through that alone.

Entirely agree, I could do a big rant about power creep in who we fight and the characters (hello Jaina), but this isn’t the thread.

[Kaytlinne-argent-dawn (Kaytlinne)]

Gods being active parts of the setting, IMO, have to be planned out AND planned from the start.

Not shoe-horned in/returning later.
Else you get… well, this.

[Elenthas-argent-dawn (Elenthas)]

I think there are settings where the gods literally walk among us that work just fine. Forgotten Realms has them constantly messing with mortals, occasionally becoming mortals, dying, and whatnot, and while the setting is a bit of a mess, the gods-are-involved stuff does work well as a setting hook.

Pillars of Eternity has a pretty good version of it too.

But equally, people know I’m an outspoken fan of Eberron where no one’s even sure that the gods exist at all. They could just be made up by people, or created by them (like the Silver Flame).

@Kaytlinne-argent-dawn

Gods being active parts of the setting, IMO, have to be planned out AND planned from the start.

Yeah, this. You can do it, but it feels weird if they start off as vague mysteries and then ten years later you’re shaking their hands.

[Jebanza-argent-dawn]

@Kaytlinne-argent-dawn

ods being active parts of the setting, IMO, have to be planned out AND planned from the start.

Not shoe-horned in/returning later.
Else you get… well, this.

in my experience it works in part for elder scrolls. it does not work for wow.

[Meronspell-argent-dawn]

@Jebanza-argent-dawn

in my experience it works in part for elder scrolls. it does not work for wow.

Tbh I’d even make the argument that the only reason it works in Elder Scrolls is because the Magne-Ge, the Aedra etc. are also totally distant; we genuinely don’t actually know if they truly exist or if the thought gives form to power. The Daedra? They’re all just living avatars of negative/ambivalent emotions for the most part, so interacting with them feels fine largely because TES still maintains the mystique but they’re also… very low level compared to say, the Aedra, or Holy Light, Titans etc. who’re all listed as Capital-G Gods typically.

[Kaytlinne-argent-dawn (Kaytlinne)]

Yeah, summed up what I was thinking already.

[Jebanza-argent-dawn]

@Meronspell-argent-dawn

hem feels fine largely because TES still maintains the mystique but they’re also… very low level compared to say, the Aedra, or Holy Light, Titans etc. who’re all listed as Capital-G Gods typically.

precisely that. their tangible deity-like beings but they have weaknesses and flaws. antagonistic but defeatable. that is vastly diffrent from the distant aedra whose interventions on Nirn are few and far between and rarely as tangible as they were during say the 4th era’s oblivion crisis.

[Meronspell-argent-dawn]

@Jebanza-argent-dawn

precisely that. their tangible deity-like beings but they have weaknesses and flaws. antagonistic but defeatable. that is vastly diffrent from the distant aedra whose interventions on Nirn are few and far between and rarely as tangible as they were during say the 4th era’s oblivion crisis.

Even Akatosh’s literal Divine Intervention in the Oblivion Crisis could be said to simply be the work of ancient magicks in the:

• Dragonfire
• Amulet of Kings

But when it comes to entities like the Titans and Holy Light, it just feels so utterly goofy that Blizz has such a visceral need to raid-bossify them at any given time by making them tangible and punchable, meanwhile the lore is like “A single Titan or Naaru can blow up a planet in a milisecond if they so wish too” and all consistency, reason and logic leaves the world, leaves the religion and you’re left knowing you’re in a video-game world written by Interns who truly don’t care.

[Jebanza-argent-dawn]

@Meronspell-argent-dawn

But when it comes to entities like the Titans and Holy Light, it just feels so utterly goofy that Blizz has such a visceral need to raid-bossify them at any given time by making them tangible and punchable, meanwhile the lore is like “A single Titan or Naaru can blow up a planet in a milisecond if they so wish too” and all consistency, reason and logic leaves the world, leaves the religion and you’re left knowing you’re in a video-game world written by Interns who truly don’t care.

couldnt have put it better myself. the symptom of a game being so raid reliant is that inevitably everything becomes punchable no matter how aloft or intangible it actually is. to this day im amazed they didnt make sargeras an actual boss fight.

[Meronspell-argent-dawn]

@Jebanza-argent-dawn

couldnt have put it better myself. the symptom of a game being so raid reliant is that inevitably everything becomes punchable no matter how aloft or intangible it actually is. to this day im amazed they didnt make sargeras an actual boss fight.

I fully expect we will kill all Void Gods, Light Gods and Titans by Midnight-TLT and the setting will be well and truly scorched earth beyond any sort of RP redemption.