This is also a case of antagonistic design - people feel like they have to farm 15s to not lose ground versus people who do, as those people get weekly 252 upgrades that 10-12 farmers don’t get.
From partially pugging a substantial amount of +15 keys I can confirm this. People are scarily expectant that you can just zerg stuff. Which we don’t have the collective ilvl for yet.
thats because imo m+ is inherently wrong designed. instead flat buff each tier “reseting tier” it should just let people go higher because of higher gear - so for example people who did 15s in tier 1 would do 20s or 22s or whatever thanks to 250 itlv gear.
people treat 15+ like 15+ from s1 and are “surprised” why they die and dont time it.
That has always been a case since mythic+ became seasonal. It’s basically a jarring shift every season where everyone who used to farm 15s expects to go right back into 15s in the next seasons. If you play well and take care that even works, which further stokes people’s expectations.
I think that the vault design is primarily at fault here. Not getting your 252 options feels really terrible. The thought process is, if nobody will take me to 15s this week, how will it be next week when the people who were already ahead have a 252 piece on top?
yes all classes are viable for 15-20 keys easily
but no one ever said every person can do it
does it though ? i must be strange since the 249 upgrade is more then enough for me - as its 23+ itlv minimum on each piece which i worn before.
pretty significant upgrades for casual scrub like me.
i see it in 14s now - its brutal since people just try to bruteforce mechanics - some do some idioticly crazy pulls like pulling trash pack with inspiring mob and on top of it torment. and are surprised that this wipes them in +14.
its a complete …show now in 14s 
to the point that its hillarius
Thats the problem however ilvl is a complete barrier, most people want players at or over the ilvl available as rewards. I’m sure it wasn’t intended to be that way.
Again 14 to 15, please read the post its not designed to go over 10 in this scenario.
Players again are only reading what they want to read.
The idea is to get people into lower level mythic plus easier, learn mechanics and the gradual increase in difficulty with a method of Gearing.
Practice for most is what’s needed, sure at the start people will find it hard but as people do it more they learn mechanics, interrupts, stuns and how to use CD etc.
Forget 14 to 15 this isn’t that type of idea.
Think less than 10
Well, that’s what I’m hearing from people I know who can’t get into +15s. Personally I only really run m+ with friends and pug some dps sometimes, and we’ve been farming some +15s from week 1. It’s not that hard but there’s not that much room for error either.
Yeah a lot of people just think it’d be a good idea to pull the torment mobs with a normal pack. The debuff they give the group makes this a TERRIBLE idea.
its not even only about torments pulls - you know this pull 3 packs + bl first pull in HoA that everyoen has been doing all first season ? aparently now cool kids pull 5 packs there - in +14 with group on 225 itlv.
i mean - how can anyone think its a good idea on inspiring fortified week . and it was tank with 2k experience from last season - so he had to do it dozens of times in past - how could it evolve to 5 packs ? 
this season starts crazy
I remember people doing 5 packs late in last season. But not on fortified week and not with inspiring. It’s almost as if they’re thinking they’re still in a s1 +15 with 225 ilvl instead of the equivalent to a +18-19
I’ve been doing that pretty much in every HoA I ran this season. There are multiple variants, and they all work fine.
The pull consists of the first two mobs that run in, the patrol with the inspired houndmaster, the two mobs in the middle, the two at the stairs, and the two before the shard. With a big blaster group, add the little mobs to the left of the shard too.
There are two ways to deal with this:
The second variant is pretty much the same, except you don’t pull the patrol at all (CC it out of combat to stop it from adding into the pull), but pull the small mobs to the left of the left shard in.
With this variant, you pull the patrol when you’re going for the 2nd shard, and use a Loyal Stoneborn to murder that pull fast. Can chill and recover CDs on the next patrol, pulled alone, and then go for the 2nd shard.
Both of these strategies work fine, but they do need some coordination, and at least a few people who are decent at interrupting (those wicked bolts hurt, and so do the gargon bleed stacks).
Another thing people do in HoA is pull the miniboss after Echelon, then CC the inspired doggy, and pull that pack and the next out into Echelon’s platform. CC or nuke the other inspired mob, finish the rest, recover CDs with the CC’d gargon (or pull that in once the houndmasters and dangerous casters are dead, or at low hp).
Oh, by the way… Ardenweald in DoS… The feeling when you pull pretty much the entire area, including the miniboss… that feels amazing. It’s an even bigger pull than in HoA.
The reason people pull this way is because you can dish out some crazy damage early on, and recover CDs by the time you reach the next part that needs some. Not having to pay attention to pride timings, you can do much more efficient pulls, without having the pride spawn mid-pull two bosses later.
I love these big pulls myself. They’re so much more fun than the regular, safe pulls. Riskier, yes. But so much fun. The key here is control. As long as you can control the inspired mob, and interrupt most of the wicked bolts, and have enough curse dispells, it’s not all that dangerous.
pls dont make it popular - for love of everything that is holy
because 90% of tanks and dps cannot keep up with this strat.
same - my personal request - pls dont make popular pulling 3 packs before hakkar at the same time.
its pure myhem whem random pugs do that
But it’s fun. And if it becomes popular, maybe pugs learn to interrupt and handle such pulls, for everyone’s benefit!
Thats actually fine if the DPS can coordinate interrupting the heals and not getting hit by whirlwinds. You can instadispell the polymorph as the healer.
“if they can”
90 % cant and will fail while just wsting time trying it.
So instead of presenting a great opportunity to learn, we fall back to boring pulls where noone ever does anything interesting, thus, the pug scene will never, ever improve. Gotcha.
rather have boring pulls and dungeons done in time then 1 cool try to pull and then group break up because someone always leave after such wipe.
But with the boring, safe pulls, you’ll barely manage to time it with current gear (if at all), leading to people leaving after the first boss 'cos its not in time. Rather have them leave early then.
thats completly not my experience
all of keys i timed were done by normal pulls
all of those non timed had some element of stupid pulls there.
You’re not running keys at the same level as Ancelyn. Up to +15 you can (mostly) get away with being cautious, although the timer is tight on Halls even at +15. Once you get past that, you have to be more ambitious with pulls because trash simply doesn’t die fast enough to pull one pack at a time.
To be fair, I’m mostly at 15/16s at the moment, too. I just like to prepare for higher keys from the start. 