PvP scaling and why secondaries don't matter

PVP Arenas
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25/08/2018 22:28Posted by Nubfilter
the damage received get's scaled by a flat multiplier that is simply targetHP/attackerHP (without modifiers from buffs etc.) - that's all. The secondaries do not get scaled separately in any way


Something that simple wouldn't work because not all secondaries are equal for all the specs. There must be more to it (behind the scenes).

Take for example 2x 370ilvl players, one who has only the 2 worst secondaries, the other with 2 bis ones where the #1 secondary is heavily weighted in the gear.
Both players are same ilvl so they'll get the same multiplier against that 280ilvl player, but the other have way better secondaries for the spec, thus dealing more damage over the duration of the match.
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So what about real low lvl items and not just bfa items, do they scale up as well?
What about weapon damage?

How is it working in BGs if I am healing mixed geared people? Like 2 guys 290-310 ilvl and 2 guys 330-355 ilvl while fighting mixed geared people as well? How will that affect my heal output?
Idk but it sounds like every single kind of 1on1 situations adjusts individually and instanly while being in mass pvp... very weird and I am already afraid of the bugs.
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I noticed this when dueling today, specced assassination and pulled out my garbage 298 daggers and people died exactly as fast as with 2 345 mythic weapons, not gonna PvP this addon unless they fix this bull!@#$, at least for open pvp
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Well ok, but what about haste and cast time of spell ?

Because we say the damage we see on ur screen in pvp is the same we see in pve but ur opponement will see different number.

But cast time, i cast UA in 1.3sec because of my amount of haste in pve, when im in pvp im still casting UA in 1.3sec.

Scaling do not do anything about that ?

So now i want to lower my cast speed as much has i can, in the end i will still need the biggest ilvl gear for the biggest amount of haste.
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27/08/2018 05:11Posted by Lýd
Well ok, but what about haste and cast time of spell ?

Because we say the damage we see on ur screen in pvp is the same we see in pve but ur opponement will see different number.

But cast time, i cast UA in 1.3sec because of my amount of haste in pve, when im in pvp im still casting UA in 1.3sec.

Scaling do not do anything about that ?

So now i want to lower my cast speed as much has i can, in the end i will still need the biggest ilvl gear for the biggest amount of haste.
Neither haste nor crit chance gets scaled down according to what the OP has been saying. Or, kind of. The OP has been saying that it doesn't and that it does, all in the same sentence. So it's been hard to get him to clarify it, which is why I gave up on it. Read the first page of the thread if you wanna see the mess...

Btw @OP:
25/08/2018 23:11Posted by Nubfilter
How the secondary increases your dps doesn't matter, just that it does.
This sentence is hilarious. It's how it increases the dps that matters most in this discussion. Because if the scaling down of haste nor crit chance doesn't affect you when hitting/casting on a target, then it automatically means that the stats weight of primary stat, versa (and mastery for some) becomes less worth than haste/crit if the system only scales down the damage of the hits themselves according to the ilvl differences. Get it now?
Let's say you have 350 ilvl. You're hitting a target with 290 ilvl. The benefits of haste/crit is equal to what you see in your character sheet, but the stats that affects the hits directly (str/agi/int, mastery for some, and versa) gets scaled down to make the hit on the target equal to if you only had 290 ilvls worth of those stats. It's basically making your haste/crit equal to your equipped ilvl be compared to whatever the other stats are scaled down to.

Another example is hard casts in, let's say a 10-second period of time by two mages with, let's say, 350 ilvl. Let's say the cast time is 2 seconds for the first one, and deals 2k dmg each time non-crit on the target with, let's say 280 ilvl just for the sake of the example. The other mage having increased the haste to a point where the hard cast is only, let's say 1.2s, but it still deals the same damage on the same target because the the int value is still the same and the secondary stats affecting the dmg directly doesn't do as much as they should so a few percentages here and there doesn't really affect the outcome. The total damage of the 10-second time periods of these two examples is then 10k dmg with a 2s cast time and 16k dmg with a 1.2s cast time (which would also only need 9.6s instead of 10s to get the dmg out).

However, it also means there is a certain point where x.x% of the stats of the ones directly affecting the hit dmg will eventually overtake haste and/or crit in stats weights, even when scaled down while haste/crit isn't, if the stats weights of those were high for the spec to begin with.

Please tell me you understand it with this, I don't think I can dumb it down any more.

To end all of this, I'll just say this: This expansion is the biggest joke I've seen as of yet by Blizzard.
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Awesome news. Pvp will still be determined by the skill not the gear. However you still will have to get better gear to acquire better secondary stats and this may get nasty closer to the end of expansion when secondaries will be capped.
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27/08/2018 05:50Posted by Irai
This sentence is hilarious. It's how it increases the dps that matters most in this discussion. Because if the scaling down of haste nor crit chance doesn't affect you when hitting/casting on a target, then it automatically means that the stats weight of primary stat, versa (and mastery for some) becomes less worth than haste/crit if the system only scales down the damage of the hits themselves according to the ilvl differences. Get it now?
Let's say you have 350 ilvl. You're hitting a target with 290 ilvl. The benefits of haste/crit is equal to what you see in your character sheet, but the stats that affects the hits directly (str/agi/int, mastery for some, and versa) gets scaled down to make the hit on the target equal to if you only had 290 ilvls worth of those stats. It's basically making your haste/crit equal to your equipped ilvl be compared to whatever the other stats are scaled down to.

This is exactly the mistake in thinking i assumed people would make, that's why i tried to explain it. Short version: you are wrong.

Long version (aka let's try again) by means of an example: take 2 players with ilvl 300 (~80k hp): player A is stacking mastery and is hitting on average for 9000 every 1.5sec, player B is stacking haste and is hitting on average for 7800 every 1.3sec; so both players do 6000 dps. They now meet another player C in PvP who has ilvl 350 (~110k hp), so the damage of players A and B gets scaled up against player C by a ratio of 110/80. Player A is therefore hitting player C on average for (9000*110/80)=12375 every 1.5sec; player B is hitting player C on average for (7800*110/80)=10725 every 1.3sec; so players A and B still have identical dps (8250) after damage scaling, despite player A stacking mastery and player B stacking haste. This is what i meant by the effect of the secondaries (including haste) being "baked into" the overall damage done. Get it now?
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27/08/2018 09:19Posted by Nubfilter
Long version (aka let's try again) by means of an example: take 2 players with ilvl 300 (~80k hp): player A is stacking mastery and is hitting on average for 9000 every 1.5sec, player B is stacking haste and is hitting on average for 7800 every 1.3sec; so both players do 6000 dps. They now meet another player C in PvP who has ilvl 350 (~110k hp), so the damage of players A and B gets scaled up against player C by a ratio of 110/80. Player A is therefore hitting player C on average for (9000*110/80)=12375 every 1.5sec; player B is hitting player C on average for (7800*110/80)=10725 every 1.3sec; so players A and B still have identical dps (8250) after damage scaling, despite player A stacking mastery and player B stacking haste. This is what i meant by the effect of the secondaries (including haste) being "baked into" the overall damage done. Get it now?
This is assuming there are no breakpoints and the dps increase isn't exponential with secondary stats, which oh wait - it is! You're basically describing a static scaling structure, when the increases are exponential and thus not linear, which in other words means that the system itself doesn't match with the ways secondary stats affects output increase. I get that it's easier to use examples from the lower ilvl's perspective, but you'll see more of the effects it has when you use a higher ilvl's perspective on a lower ilvl target.
Read my previous posts again if you still don't get that.

Basically the calculation itself needs to be adaptive to the exponential pace, which the one you used is not. It doesn't take into account the stats weights, and the way it affects the pace of the "playstyle" (whatever is left, so much has been pruned anyway...). I already explained the way haste can affect the output, and the calculation you used wouldn't be able to compensate for that. The main point is that the dps increase isn't linear, it's exponential. The more you stack it, the more it's going to increase it per point.

Or you can just wait for the season to begin and see the effects proper gearing is going to have. I recommend watching streams for that one, since this is going to affect the top of the ladders more.

Oh right, and let's not forget the history of trinkets and passives from legendaries. Depending on what you had, it could increase your dps by up to twice as much just from equipping that one item or a combo of certain items, and it wasn't always by the direct damage it had but the passive effects it/they provided. That's another example of non-linear output increases. Which, according to you, doesn't get scaled.
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This is assuming there are no breakpoints and the dps increase isn't exponential with secondary stats, which oh wait - it is! Refer you to my previous posts if you still don't get that.


Like i said, the degree to which high ilvl gear with optimized secondaries is better than low ilvl gear is the degree to which your best secondary scales better than the rest of your secondaries. and no, secondaries don't scale exponential... haste might scale slightly superlinear, but certainly not expontential.
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27/08/2018 11:08Posted by Nubfilter
and no, secondaries don't scale exponential... haste might scale slightly superlinear, but certainly not expontential.
Well, you'll see for yourself in due time. By now it'd just go around in circles so now you can pretty much just pick certain pieces here and there of previous posts to find an answer as to why it's better to get a high ilvl with a spec-appropriate stats build. No need for me to repeat it further.
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if this is true then its the most retarded thing and i regret DE all my blues with haste versa/mastery.

Nice blizzard.
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The real question is: does this work with 80 legendarys etc?
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27/08/2018 11:33Posted by Xaxaxaxaxaxa
The real question is: does this work with 80 legendarys etc?


already farming my cata legendary staff
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26/08/2018 22:56Posted by Cobrea
We are both 2600+ experienced PvP players and this guy made us look like wet noodles. I have no problem admitting to being made to look like a little b**ch by a 114 because this is outrageous and needs to be looked at.
To be honest if you ask me anyone who attacks leveling players is a little b**ch by default

You're not wrong, you're just a donkeyhole
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I definitly think seconday stat really matter despite than some ppl think it dosent or even doesn't "rly".

So lets say we can equip gear with only one type of secondary stat.

Player A is 300 ilvl with full gear giving only haste for a total of 800.
Player B is 350 ilvl with full gear giving only haste for a total of 1200.

Player B got more intell, but this will be scaling, so intell doesn't matter right.

Both player will do the exact same damage, by that i mean the hit itself.

They both have no more mastery, no more crit, no more versa.

The only difference is player B will cast faster.

Player B with bigger ilvl still got a big advantage over player A.

Nothing has changed, u need the gear with the best ilvl that all.

And i will not believe player B will do less hit damage because he cast faster, i mean like rly, the game would lower ur hit damage because he see u cast faster, no way.
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What I am afraid of is that if you stack mastery, you will get scaled and your hit does 500 damage.
If you stack Haste you will get scaled and your hit does 500 damage.

That way stacking +dmg over +speed and stuff would be stupid thus giving haste even more upside and actually punishing people going for some type of secondary.

Don't know if that's the case, from what you've written, it might be, I hope it's not.
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I have think to a perfect setup to test in game.

Find 2 player, same class and are caster, we could also say same race.

Give them the exact same gear, what u can find in market, like the blue gear than we can craft. Give them the same Azerite gear, what we can find with WQ, do not put any azerite trait.

Now just do not give them any trinket.

To just one player, give him that trinket "Plunderbeard's Flask" (give flat amount of haste) and on the both blue craft ring who has slot, put 2 gem +40 haste and also 2 enchant +27 haste. That player should have his cast time lowered by .x sec.

Both player now hit each other with the same spell, no crit ofc.

Case A : Both player lost the same % of hp. If yes and if the player with more haste still cast faster, then secondary stat rly matter

Case B : The player with more haste hit for less damage, mean the player with less haste will lost less % of hp. Still player with more haste cast faster.

Honestly, i dont even need to make this test in game, Case B would never happen, its just too stupid to work this way.

U could also do same thing with a trinket who give flat mastery instead of the trinket haste + mastery enchant/gem on ring. And im sure the player with more mastery will hit harder.

Now lets say, in my first exemple with the trinket haste, to the other player who had no trinket, lets give him 2 trinket with flat intell on it and to the player who had 1 trinket haste, we give him another trinket with flat intell. Now it will be interesting to see what happen.
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27/08/2018 13:07Posted by Lýd
I definitly think seconday stat really matter despite than some ppl think it dosent or even doesn't "rly".

So lets say we can equip gear with only one type of secondary stat.

Player A is 300 ilvl with full gear giving only haste for a total of 800.
Player B is 350 ilvl with full gear giving only haste for a total of 1200.

Player B got more intell, but this will be scaling, so intell doesn't matter right.

Both player will do the exact same damage, by that i mean the hit itself.

They both have no more mastery, no more crit, no more versa.

The only difference is player B will cast faster.

Player B with bigger ilvl still got a big advantage over player A.

Nothing has changed, u need the gear with the best ilvl that all.

And i will not believe player B will do less hit damage because he cast faster, i mean like rly, the game would lower ur hit damage because he see u cast faster, no way.

27/08/2018 13:30Posted by Whisperer
What I am afraid of is that if you stack mastery, you will get scaled and your hit does 500 damage.
If you stack Haste you will get scaled and your hit does 500 damage.

That way stacking +dmg over +speed and stuff would be stupid thus giving haste even more upside and actually punishing people going for some type of secondary.

Don't know if that's the case, from what you've written, it might be, I hope it's not.

No, and no. See my example from before:

27/08/2018 09:19Posted by Nubfilter
take 2 players with ilvl 300 (~80k hp): player A is stacking mastery and is hitting on average for 9000 every 1.5sec, player B is stacking haste and is hitting on average for 7800 every 1.3sec; so both players do 6000 dps. They now meet another player C in PvP who has ilvl 350 (~110k hp), so the damage of players A and B gets scaled up against player C by a ratio of 110/80. Player A is therefore hitting player C on average for (9000*110/80)=12375 every 1.5sec; player B is hitting player C on average for (7800*110/80)=10725 every 1.3sec; so players A and B still have identical dps (8250) after damage scaling, despite player A stacking mastery and player B stacking haste. This is what i meant by the effect of the secondaries (including haste) being "baked into" the overall damage done.
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Don't really know why they brought out that complicated system with bfa when scaling and gearing was the best during mop and wod.

why change something when it doesn't need to get changed?
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27/08/2018 09:19Posted by Nubfilter
take 2 players with ilvl 300 (~80k hp): player A is stacking mastery and is hitting on average for 9000 every 1.5sec, player B is stacking haste and is hitting on average for 7800 every 1.3sec; so both players do 6000 dps. They now meet another player C in PvP who has ilvl 350 (~110k hp), so the damage of players A and B gets scaled up against player C by a ratio of 110/80. Player A is therefore hitting player C on average for (9000*110/80)=12375 every 1.5sec; player B is hitting player C on average for (7800*110/80)=10725 every 1.3sec; so players A and B still have identical dps (8250) after damage scaling, despite player A stacking mastery and player B stacking haste. This is what i meant by the effect of the secondaries (including haste) being "baked into" the overall damage done.


I think u do not realize what u are saying and what rly matter.

Ur exemple is about 2 player A and B who got the exact same amount of dps potential, one of them hit harder with less cast speed and the other hit for less with more cast speed, they are against 1 (C player) player with more gear.

And u say player A and B will do the same damage against player C. OFC they do, we do not need pvp to see that, let player A and B hit a dummy they will still do the same DPS. U say both do 6k dps on like dummy and do same dps on C player.

I mean, water is wet right ?

But who care about that ?

What people want to know is if having more Ilvl matter yes or not, and !@#$ yeah it matter because it give you more secondary stat.

Now maybe the scaling we see in pve is not the same in pvp, what i mean is if we do right now a simcraft with scaling on and lets say my character with my gear is intell>haste>mastery>crit>versa.

It could not be the same in pvp, first crit hit for 150% of damage in pvp so the crit value would be the lower, behind versa. If Intell is scaling then it would not even be a factor and u can get it out. So by my first exemple in pvp i would be Haste>Mastery>Versa>Crit. Now maybe haste and mastery scaling act different aswell and we dont now how. But something is sure if im casting in X time a spell in pve i will do the same in pvp.