Here's a simple solution for the "raider.io problem" that makes finding Mythic dungeon groups very frustrating for alts and new players:
Just enable the Dungeon Finder for Mythic and Mythic+ difficulties, with ilevel-based requirements just like with Normal, Heroic, and LFR.
Mythic: 320
Mythic +2: 325
Mythic +3: 330
etc.
And just remove keystones. Allow custom groups to pick any difficulty they want.
I have a feeling you may be frustrated with the system and would simply like a fix that suits your playstyle instead of changes that align with everyone's interest.
This would be the bottleneck for content.
It is a bad idea as it would limit very good players to progress (once again) and allow not so good players to be carried by better ones.
I think having to choice to determine whether you want someone in your group or not is better than forcing everyone to be templated. Remember, titanforging is still a thing on top of your suggestion which means that a player could have a much higher ilvl than the level/skill they play at simply due to being lucky.
It is a big NO for me to this suggestion.
Inb4 you get prot warrior, shaman healer and 3 feral druids and you wonder "how could this happen to me? I've made my mistakes..."
And what is wrong with shaman healer? They are great in dungeons and PvP, you just suck.
04/11/2018 22:40Posted by
Cypha I think a LFG could work but you have to complete the lower level mythic Key 3 times to be able to que for the next level and meet the gear requirement level.
So to qualify to que for a Mythic +4 LFG key you have to have completed all the Dungeon 3 times at +3
Also M+ last boss complete in time should allow you to get guarenteed 1 piece of loot for the loot table that you can select.
This would mean you would need to do each tier at least 3 times so that 3x15 runs per Dungeon which is loads of content no one gets pissed off with no reward runs either and loot can still be randomly titan forged.
But Blizzards current systems is randomly grind the crap out of everything and hope you get lucky but in reality people just get fed up and quit.
Ive done some M+ Dungeons 30+ times and still not got the peice im after..
Everyone likes to have structure to there progress and thing to aim for and a way to obtain certain gear right now thats missing.
Anyone im unsubbed soon because Blizzard dont care anymore.
This is logical.
The problem is, OP, and many of her/his ilk are not arguing for this.
They want to get invited to the highest key they can possibly be carried through, without actually having to get good.
I admit, dps classes waiting ages to get a group is problematic. But, don't blame raider.io for that. You can blame blizzard, the community for misusing the tool, but raider.io provides the best information it can. They are not to blame.
On one hand, I don't have a problem for people queuing through LFG tool for NORMAL mythics. I agree, normal dungeons are a joke--I don't even bother doing ANY, if I can avoid it. Kind of a waste really. Heroics have only a low modicum of usefulness, even normal mythics are meh.
But, as soon as m+ has a queue, it will just turn into LFR, eventually.
If you want that experience, just queue heroics.
But, oh wait, you want free, easy loot?
which reminds me, of when heroics originally got released (TBC).
Those were meaty. A good time, where you had to be on point to complete the dungeon.
I could only queue it once per day, because you got relevant gear from it--and tokens, which also gave good loot.
Back then, you would even have to grind NORMALs for rep, to get into the heroics.
I am not one of those saying, "Oh tbc was the best." But, that system wasn't bad.
I like mythic plus, it's also good.
But, the whole concept of what a "heroic" means, what a normal dungeon means, needs to be examined. I would almost say, just get rid of normal/heroic/mythic 0, and just have mythic 0 as a start, and call it "normal" and the rest m+.
mythic 0 would be hard with bad gear, but that is why you would need to buy gear, grind gear in wq, or get gear through all means necessary, and/or FIGHT through "normal" to get gear. Now and days, there are enough avenues for gear, anyway.
05/11/2018 09:40Posted by
Oblech I know, right. But aside of what mainly drives you to play WoW, the progression is something almost everyone craves for - thought it's obvious so I didn't mention it. Right now I'm kinda denied the progression just because I am who I am.
You might get upset with what I'm gonna say now, but:
Wow has never had unlimited solo progress. In fact, it is now at a forgiving point into this, because it allows you to gear up pretty far without any significant interaction with others. I wasn't always a raider, I started the game alone, and I played through TBC mostly alone. I had plenty to do, but I did so because character progress was very slow. Still, at some point you hit a brick wall and group content is the only way forward. That is how I met the first friends in wow, that is how I got in the first guild, that is how everything started.
You are not denied progress because of what you are, you are denied progress because that is how this game has always been. Solo content never had the best gear, nor even the 2nd best. If you want to progress, you are expected some form of collaboration with others.
05/11/2018 09:40Posted by
Oblech Maybe it's not what he's asking for, maybe it is. With the scaling added, he wouldn't have to be bothered with people declining him all the time, as he could do it solo/in 2s/3s - w/e.
How can WoW be without other people. Just because you can do some content solo, doesn't mean you can't group up and do it in party as you enjoy. Noone denies you the grouping experience, so why am I denied the solo experience? Everything comes down to a choice. Should I be locked in a cage, just because I am different and majority of people disagree with my beliefs/preferences?
Don't get me wrong, I know where you are coming from. Back in TBC, since getting into end content was pretty hard, me and and a friend found our challenge into leveling by 2 manning dungeons. It sounds trivial now, but back then there were no heirlooms, and classes were generally a lot weaker. We went into BRD at level 52 and got out of there 4 hours later level 56. I had to keep a mob with mana alive to mana tap him (I was a paladin tank). My friend didn't have the mana to dps, he had to play super conservative to have enough to heal, because packs lasted so long. I never got aware before that how many healers trash in dungeons have.
I would love 2 people content that is challenging and rewarding - but that is a completely different thing to m+. Adding scaling to it would just mess it up.
I have been an elitist player myself, even made server first boss kills and earned standing 1 in PvP back then..
so I know the mind of one, and it's pointless to argue against elitism with an elitist ^^ it is something only time can change..
But consider this.. these changes wouldent affect you.. you are already an elite player and don't use the que system anyways.. what are you afraid of? You are already in the high end of the PvP bracket around the 2200 and the high end of the keystone 10+ levels..
You will never meet/play with the quers anyways.. but it would make this game much more challenging and interesting for us casuals that don't have time for the deep in-game player connections anymore.
Remove timers and add requirement so you can queue only if you have done the same dungeon at least one difficulty below and it could work.
Worst idea ever. Entitled scrubs are always looking for a way to get maximum reward for minimum effort. Raider.io is absolutely necessary and actually having to vet people for m+ has given me a lot of new bnet friends.
05/11/2018 10:34Posted by
Roxia I have been an elitist player myself, even made server first boss kills and earned standing 1 in PvP back then..
so I know the mind of one, and it's pointless to argue against elitism with an elitist ^^ it is something only time can change..
But consider this.. these changes wouldent affect you.. you are already an elite player and don't use the que system anyways.. what are you afraid of? You are already in the high end of the PvP bracket around the 2200 and the high end of the keystone 10+ levels..
You will never meet/play with the quers anyways.. but it would make this game much more challenging and interesting for us casuals that don't have time for the deep in-game player connections anymore.
I disagree with your definition of elitist, but I won't get into that. The problem is that it will in fact affect us eventually, queueable content by nature needs to be easier as there is a chance of getting a full "new player" group or just horrible class combinations. U may say, sure that's fine, just don't use the queue if you don't want to, but making it queueable is also eventually going to lead to having the difficulty nerfed and thus removing what we "elitists" as you insist on calling us enjoy. I just don't understand why ALL content has to be designed for the lowest common denominator, what is wrong with having something for everyone?
We were all that "noob" at one stage, we didn't whine for things to be nerfed and made easier, if we wanted to do that difficult content we improved, we practiced, we got better.
U say that people who don't like the queue idea could stay out of it, it works both ways, if you don't like mythic+ as is, don't do it. There's no need to ruin it for those of us who do.
Raider.io is not a problem, it's the solution to a problem.
Are you queued into a gladiator team when you queue for a random arena at 1.2k rating? No. The rating system is like an automatic version of raider.io and is set in place just so that this won't happen.
Bad players just aren't welcome in goof groups, and if your goal is clearing a weekly +10, you can eaasily create a decen enough group yourself or just learn how to make friends in the game.
05/11/2018 11:58Posted by
Amalei 05/11/2018 10:34Posted by
Roxia I have been an elitist player myself, even made server first boss kills and earned standing 1 in PvP back then..
so I know the mind of one, and it's pointless to argue against elitism with an elitist ^^ it is something only time can change..
But consider this.. these changes wouldent affect you.. you are already an elite player and don't use the que system anyways.. what are you afraid of? You are already in the high end of the PvP bracket around the 2200 and the high end of the keystone 10+ levels..
You will never meet/play with the quers anyways.. but it would make this game much more challenging and interesting for us casuals that don't have time for the deep in-game player connections anymore.
I disagree with your definition of elitist, but I won't get into that. The problem is that it will in fact affect us eventually, queueable content by nature needs to be easier as there is a chance of getting a full "new player" group or just horrible class combinations. U may say, sure that's fine, just don't use the queue if you don't want to, but making it queueable is also eventually going to lead to having the difficulty nerfed and thus removing what we "elitists" as you insist on calling us enjoy. I just don't understand why ALL content has to be designed for the lowest common denominator, what is wrong with having something for everyone?
We were all that "noob" at one stage, we didn't whine for things to be nerfed and made easier, if we wanted to do that difficult content we improved, we practiced, we got better.
U say that people who don't like the queue idea could stay out of it, it works both ways, if you don't like mythic+ as is, don't do it. There's no need to ruin it for those of us who do.
I disagree.. what kind of players you get depends completely on criteria of the match making system.. why wouldent something like ilvl or raider.io work with an automated que system? Please explain why it's necessary to use a chat channel...
Being elite and being skilled is not necessary the same thing.. Elite players spend far more time in this game then others.. skill is talent.. unfortunately alot of elite players delude themself, thinking they are skilled.. accumulated achievements and higher ilvls because of higher uptime in grinding isent skill...
Btw it's also very easy to spot those deluded ones.. those that whine on the forums about getting owned in wpvp, because their 20-30 ilvl higher gear, aren't helping them win the 1n1s :)
05/11/2018 12:24Posted by
Roxia why wouldent something like ilvl or raider.io work with an automated que system?
Ilev is a bad indicator atm, due to the titanforge system. You could have a 370 ilev person that never stepped foot in a dungeon.
Raider.io score is a third party addon. Sure, if blizzard implemented one, it might work - but how does this solve the issue of the people that are complaining about the score now?
05/11/2018 12:24Posted by
Roxia Being elite and being skilled is not necessary the same thing.. Elite players spend far more time in this game then others.. skill is talent..
Being elite and elitist are also two different things.
why wouldent something like ilvl or raider.io work with an automated que system? Please explain why it's necessary to use a chat channel
Not enough people. Queue would take like 5 hours unless you let everyone to queue with everyone (no ratings) and that would make 99% of the runs fails.
maybe only for MM 0 then but not for anything higher.
Ilvl means nothing nowadays
PS: even it it looks boring to repeat it again but having an active guild helps so much for MM+
How about removing TF so ilvl can matter again?
I think the core of the issue is that "casual Joe" and "hardcore m+ runner" interests overlap. Most of the casual players(noobs, lechers, carry-whiners...what ever you want to call them) just want their +10 done either for weekly or for gear. But since +10s are in the "big boy territory" the hardcore m+ players(elitists, snobs..and all the other names) wont take just anybody for their run. And there you have it...the seeds of discord.
In comparison to legion(BIG P.S I am basing my opinion on what I observed 7.2.5 early 7.3 since I had to go abroad during summer, I have no idea about the state of m+ in the last weeks before BFA):
+2 - +15s were for the commoners(so to speak). It was easy to do those if you at least know the difference between your left and right foot.(While BfA +10 - won't get into unless you have a sparkling raider CV and 3 recommendations lolz)
Didn't notice any big raider.io brick walls. Sure there were raider io requirements here and there but the forums weren't flooded about raider.io issues like today.
And +17s and above where big boy turf.
So my suggestion for a solution would be:
Add the possibility to queue up for M+s with all the rules and limitations(must complete a +2 on time before you can queue up for a +3 and etc.). Nerf it so its "casual-queue friendly" IF needed...
BUUUT... cap it at +10(or at +15 when Blizz will increase the loot ilevel cap in later patches). If you want to do anything higher than +10(+15), you need to do it like now. Premade group+raider io score and etc. Anything higher than +10(+15) is for dedicated m+s runners to compete with each other for them score. And casual Joes will leave you alone since all they wanted were their +10 weekly chest and and some epic purples.
I believe then both sides would be happy?
Iam not complaining about not getting easy bis, iam not complaining about iam missing out on content, I don't feel weak compared to anyone, actually and I think my main interest in this game, wich is wpvp is great atm..
Im stating that the content in the LFR and Dungeon finder are boring and useless, whats the point? even with wq and emissary items, you just steamroll through it.. how is this a good thing?
If not allowing basic mythic dungeons in the dungeon finder? What else? Invent another que only level lol?
05/11/2018 12:24Posted by
Roxia <span class="truncated">...</span>
I disagree with your definition of elitist, but I won't get into that. The problem is that it will in fact affect us eventually, queueable content by nature needs to be easier as there is a chance of getting a full "new player" group or just horrible class combinations. U may say, sure that's fine, just don't use the queue if you don't want to, but making it queueable is also eventually going to lead to having the difficulty nerfed and thus removing what we "elitists" as you insist on calling us enjoy. I just don't understand why ALL content has to be designed for the lowest common denominator, what is wrong with having something for everyone?
We were all that "noob" at one stage, we didn't whine for things to be nerfed and made easier, if we wanted to do that difficult content we improved, we practiced, we got better.
U say that people who don't like the queue idea could stay out of it, it works both ways, if you don't like mythic+ as is, don't do it. There's no need to ruin it for those of us who do.
I disagree.. what kind of players you get depends completely on criteria of the match making system.. why wouldent something like ilvl or raider.io work with an automated que system? Please explain why it's necessary to use a chat channel...
Being elite and being skilled is not necessary the same thing.. Elite players spend far more time in this game then others.. skill is talent.. unfortunately alot of elite players delude themself, thinking they are skilled.. accumulated achievements and higher ilvls because of higher uptime in grinding isent skill...
Btw it's also very easy to spot those deluded ones.. those that whine on the forums about getting owned in wpvp, because their 20-30 ilvl higher gear, aren't helping them win the 1n1s :)
1. As the person above me stated, using raider.io or something similar would mean incredibly long queues especially with specific dungeons you would be splitting the player base into smaller and smaller groups as you went up the ladder. Nobody would use the automated queue since it would still be faster to use lfg. Using item level doesn't do anything, that is the entire problem with mythic+ atm, people overgearing through easy content and jumping straight into harder keys where they don't belong, u would merely have the same issue with an automated queue, doesn't solve the problem. Dungeons would eventually still be nerfed to fit with those people and thus those of us who do enjoy the challenge would still be affected.
2. I said nothing about elite, I am not the elite, never claimed to be. The "elite" are those people pushing world 100 or super high keys, doing the highest level content at a competitive level. I said elitist (generally a negative term used to describe people who look down on others and I am not that either) as that was what u called people who do higher end content. Your words not mine. Those people you speak of also fall into the category of those in these threads who because of their ilvl have deluded themselves into thinking that they can skip straight to the difficult content without learning the way the rest of us did (by sticking to our skill level and improving). A queue system based on ilvl would mean more of these, not less.
05/11/2018 12:53Posted by
Roxia Im stating that the content in the LFR and Dungeon finder are boring and useless, whats the point? even with wq and emissary items, you just steamroll through it.. how is this a good thing?
And you know why it is boring? Because people complained that it's too hard for an automatic matchmaking system. Everything that is based on a queue has been nerfed to the ground, so it can be done by the worst possible groups.
I have another solution.
How about they remove all M+ from the game. They then add decent open world content to get players out and about again?
Dungeons go back to the staple progressive character progression of Normal-Heroic- Mythic- Then onto raids (or pvp it's that your thing).
Bring back pvp vendors for the pvp'ers, and tier vendors for the raiders.
We then choose where and what to grind at our choosing, and for the downtime, off we go into the open world for the aforementioned open world content.
Oh wait a minute. Didn't we once have something like this? Ah now I remember, they fooked it all up trying to kick-start 25 mans and "Balance" (lol, I love the use of that word in this game), PVP.
Ah well, that's me out of ideas.
Can anyone loan me some gold to buy a higher Raider IO rating?