Rework Cyclone

[Broxis-blackrock]

@Yojeong-kazzak

You never answered on my question before, feels like you are dodging it.

nah didnt see

@Yojeong-kazzak

In what way does it prove cyclone itself isnt a problem? It got buffed going from 10.0 to 10.1. Just saying. Apparently wasnt a big problem then either?

If something is op in ANY bracket then people are playing it / abusing it. In what world is a casted CC that can be kicked and has low range that immunes targets so gamebreaking that it needs to be adressed?
If its so gamebreaking and a “problem” then everybody would play boomy and feral while in reality they are nowhere near top representation.

@Yojeong-kazzak

So you are saying boomies would be completely unplayable and nerfed to the ground if lets say cyclone gets a nerf to 5sec

where did i say that? You are the first one that mentions reduced CC time. People in this topic talked about giving clone a 15 sec CD (lol) or making it work like fear.
Nerfing clone to 5 seconds would not make boomy unplayable but given the fact that the spec itself isnt even overperforming i dont see any reason to do so?

@Yojeong-kazzak

So we are leaving the statistics of RSS to prove if something is overperforming or not?

You can take 2s, 3s, SS and AWC to measure performance for boomies too if you want lol.
In 2s boomy is always one of the worst specs and until idk this or last AWC we didnt had a boomkin in like 3 years AWC even though clone was always in their toolkit. Meanwhile we had 15 different versions of rogue or sub that were broken.

Just to clarify on what means “historically overperforming” because of class toolkit.

@Faveyo-die-nachtwache

BUT the problem is, if he cant get the Map controll with cyclone spams, he is litteraly a Punching bag who getting tunnelled to death over a Time (because the selfheal/ survivalbility) isnt good enough

so the whole game designe when it comes to Boomi and Feral is just trash

dont even think thats bad game design. It doesnt work for ferals of course because they have to switch out of cat form all the time but boomies relying on spam cycloning on DR all the time isnt bad game design at all. There is heavy counterplay to it but good positioning, fakes and timing makes a big difference between good and bad boomies.

[Faveyo-die-nachtwache]

@Broxis-blackrock

spam cycloning on DR all the time isnt bad game design at all.

i mean in other xpac´s for sure, because the pacing was also different, and Druid in general had More survivalbility, so u had cases where you didn’t spam clones so that you could even breathe until your incarn is rdy again

but the dragonflight problem was, that the synergie between boomy, demo/ frost mage, (was) freaky annoying to play against, and i dont blame a player for it, u have to play like this, to win

but the gameplay when i compare it to other xpacs, felt like a walmart beta version of a game

im be honest with you, the gameplay with Displacer beast, Vortex, more Heal, and better kiting tool in the past, felt better to watch, than the current Gameplay, or in what current state boomi/feral is

Cyclone maybe i cant see it, and other peoples enjoying it, but for me, it isnt good game designe, when u rely on full cyclone spam, even as boomy, because outside of Incarn, nothing felt worth to press, so most of the owls, just spam cc, until they get the range pala wings rdy again

and in my opinion, u have to spam even more cyclones now, because they nerfed our survivability, Mobility + sustain dmg from both specs, so ofc peoples doing it

I mean i really like cyclone, and im against a nerf, But I also don’t want to be 100% dependent on this spell, i liked it, when it was more “situational” even on good boomys than just spaming it 24/7

i mean the difference is still there between good cyclones and bad, but it has decreased a lot, especially when you play on it to reset your main cds because nothing else works

​

[Levelsabove-stormscale]

Yojeong doesnt even play the game

[Jenovas-argent-dawn]

Yes remove power out of Cyclone and put it back into the spec Blizzard! Let Feral and Boomkin be viable without having to spam cyclone.

[Yojeong-kazzak]

@Faveyo-die-nachtwache

Ring of Peace, Kick, fear, grounding, lasso, (situational) thunderstorm, incap, Counterspell, Db, cheap shot, shadowmeld, fade, Vanish, feign death, pet stun, hoj, legsweap, Silence, horror, Poly, Fear, coil, axe stun, stormbolt, warri fear, reflect, bladestorm, prism, dh aoe stun, meta, etc

I mean, sure, then nothing needs to be changed since pretty much every CC is counterable.

@Faveyo-die-nachtwache

i just woander why nobody complained about cyclone in wod or legion or bfa, when u had way less stuff to Counter cyclone, especially in shadowlands

You sure noone ever said anything about cyclone back then? =p

@Faveyo-die-nachtwache

well, they would be pretty much useless, its like saying remove poly from mage, to remove a spell would causes many Balance issues, then they have to buff the dmg instead to bring them in line with other specs

So boomie and feral were useless in 10.0? Since cyclone were 5-5.2sec then.

@Faveyo-die-nachtwache

BUT the problem is, if he cant get the Map controll with cyclone spams, he is litteraly a Punching bag who getting tunnelled to death over a Time (because the selfheal/ survivalbility) isnt good enough

so the whole game designe when it comes to Boomi and Feral is just trash

Feral is anyway a different story, I think everyone knows if a CC is in your main DMG rotation it can’t be good and is the worst game design what a class can have, Cyclone should be situational and not a main core spell in your rotation, like in the past

but yeah i cant see hope for boomi/feral in this xpac im be honest with you

And said that if theres any typical changes to cyclone that affects boomie and feral that much they would need to get compensate somewhat or something changed for it.

@Broxis-blackrock

If something is op in ANY bracket then people are playing it / abusing it. In what world is a casted CC that can be kicked and has low range that immunes targets so gamebreaking that it needs to be adressed?
If its so gamebreaking and a “problem” then everybody would play boomy and feral while in reality they are nowhere near top representation.

That wasnt my question.

@Broxis-blackrock

where did i say that? You are the first one that mentions reduced CC time. People in this topic talked about giving clone a 15 sec CD (lol) or making it work like fear.
Nerfing clone to 5 seconds would not make boomy unplayable but given the fact that the spec itself isnt even overperforming i dont see any reason to do so?

Ppl talked about potential reworks against cyclone while all you did was deny anything of that sort since you personally see absolutely no issues with it. You also saw absolutely 0 issue with boomies in 10.1.

@Broxis-blackrock

You can take 2s, 3s, SS and AWC to measure performance for boomies too if you want lol.

I wasnt the one who started with representation in RSS to argue for my case about a spell.
When that did not work for you, you instead decided to talk about the tournament.
Im just interested in what kind of representation says cyclone as a spell is absolutely nothing wrong with. Might be nothing wrong with Boomies or Feral but thats specs. Not a spell.
So instead of adding potential talk about Cyclone, you instead went with “Nothing is wrong. Denied.”

@Levelsabove-stormscale

Yojeong doesnt even play the game

I play the game more than you do most likely.

[Faveyo-die-nachtwache]

@Yojeong-kazzak

So boomie and feral were useless in 10.0? Since cyclone were 5-5.2sec then.

which season was 10.0 i never look at patchnotes numbers, more like arena seasons

@Yojeong-kazzak

And said that if theres any typical changes to cyclone that affects boomie and feral that much they would need to get compensate somewhat or something changed for it.

yeah blizz wont do that, because it´s pvp sadly, they rather to give some Goblin 100 Mio $ than investing 2k$ into pvp

[Yojeong-kazzak]

@Faveyo-die-nachtwache

which season was 10.0 i never look at patchnotes numbers, more like arena seasons

S1, first season =p

@Faveyo-die-nachtwache

yeah blizz wont do that, because it´s pvp sadly, they rather to give some Goblin 100 Mio $ than investing 2k$ into pvp

Thats why having a dream is always nice. Sadly most of the dreams dont come to reality xd
But being able to discuss potential changes that dont hurt the specs should be fine, since its just a discussion >_>

[Faveyo-die-nachtwache]

@Yojeong-kazzak

S1, first season =p

Well simple

Aoe dmg from feral was on Steroids, especially when u did the Funnel tech, and gave him dmg Mods on top of that from other classes like Pi etc

and Clone was impossible to get as a Feral “talent point wise” , because the normal Druid tree was even worse than the current one

There was just no point to take it

“cost too many Talent points”

“aoe dmg was too good”

[Kerlf-argent-dawn]

Just buff feral and nerf cyclone, I am so tired of resto druids getting carried by spamming that in SS.

[Jenovas-argent-dawn]

@Shadenox-ravencrest

It did more than that last season when several forum ferals were crying for no reason

Wow and so did I and I suck. I created a BM Hunter and hit 2k without even knowing my spells, MM hunter the same, DK the same. Feral was the only spec where I actually had to work super hard to hit 2k+. Just shows the difference of skill you need between specs and feral is for some reason one of the hardest if not hardest / weakest specs in the game right now. Just cause you were able to hit 2k doesnt mean the spec is ok.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

The topic might be the Clone ability but Clone is the core of feral now. Until that changes Feral has to be taken into account thats all im saying.

Yes just nerfing clone without changing all our specs will just make Druids unplayable in PvP. We need them to nerf cyclone and just give us more power. More DMG, more healing, better survivability, cause currently Cyclone carries us hard.

@Shadenox-ravencrest

The game should be looked at considering the full potential of every spec

No. That would work if we didn’t have solo shuffle. What if a specs full power can only be achieved if he plays with 2 very specific other specs and doesnt work with anything else? Should Blizzard not make a single change to that very flawed spec that only works in one combination out of 100 possible just because at it’s full potential it is OP? Druids need a rework. Cyclone should be nerfed and power should be put back into the specs. Taking Cyclone should be a choice, not a must.

@Zaggra-draenor

Well if you want feral buffs make your own forum post about feral buffs. This one is dedicated to one specific ability that all druids have.

If you wanna nerf or buff something you need to look at the whole class and not just that one spell. Just looking at a single spell is dumb and ends up with bad class design.

@Broxis-blackrock

If a spec(boomy/feral) is not overperforming in any way i dont see any reason why a huge nerf to their major CC would be reasonable.

Because it’s toxic and super powerful and the only reason why Feral / Bala / Resto won’t get any good buffs and gameplay changes is because cyclone is so powerful. All specs need to be weaker than normal just because Cyclone is so powerful. Look what happened when Resto became strong? Cyclone made every single game vs RDruid a nightmare. Why did Boomy get nerfed so hard so many times I think season 2? Because Cyclone was super OP and instead of nerfing Cyclone they tried to nerf everything else and now we are only S / A tier because we can spam Cyclone and nothing else.

@Broxis-blackrock

yes which further shows that cyclone itself wasnt the problem but all the talents around it. They nerfed it and boomy is back being a good but not op spec.

No cyclone was always the issue and still is. The talents just made using Cyclone super easy due to crazy haste amount and even made using trinket useless cause you still lost half your DMG and Healing. And cyclone is still the issue. Games where I’m not the target I’m a god that can control the flow of the game. Games where you can’t cyclone suck cause the specs are made weaker just to let cyclone be so strong.

@Broxis-blackrock

Boomy on the other hand completely relies on cyclone because the rest of their toolkit is lacking. No selfheal, no slow, bad defensives etc.

Yes so buff all of that and nerf cyclone. Make the spec feel good and let cyclone be a decision and not the center of every druid spec.

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Дисфейвор-soulflayer

If the gap exists, you can fade. If you intend, but don’t - yes, skill issue for priest. Often times the gap doesn’t exist tho. Even so, trading fade to be recycloned in 1 second is not the best move.

Gap always exists. If Phase Shift and Cyclone go off both at the same time and you’re cycloned, then it’s a problem, I agree, but I’d call it a bug and call for a fix rather than nerf.

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Gox-aggramar

It became a bigger problem when they increased the cast range of it through the talent tree. So it has been slightly altered.

It’s 3 yards… is it really?

@Yojeong-kazzak

I am fully aware of the “situation” with feral in terms of Cyclone gameplay. But when I talk about changing cyclone, it also includes feral rework to go away from toxic cyclone spam.

Then call for a rework and list this as a point there rather than singling it out.

In my opinion Cyclone is one of the strongest CC in the game, but it has huge downside of not being able to overlap, sometimes screwing over your teammates, and most importantly - very short range… which means most healers can simply run from Cyclone and be okay, something that is not as easy when somebody casts Fear or Poly on you.

As for Feral: hard casting Cyclone in melee range is kinda insane already, that’s very difficult and statistic show that, because getting the Cyclone off is very very very rewarding… yet it’s so hard to pull off that Ferals struggle in shuffle. If it was so strong, why do they struggle?

As for Boomkin: Probably easiest spec to get off Cyclone, yet hard nevertheless, since most of the time it’s kinda antisynergistic: your partner gets attacked? You don’t want to be too close to them to Cyclone, or you get cleaved. You get attacked? You don’t want to spend too much time outside of Bear form vs burst, and outside of burst, why do you need to Cyclone?..

Cyclone seems strong on paper, but really, the range is too punishing. While it’s still very strong, it has huge issues and this thread simply looks over them.

[Shadenox-ravencrest (Shadenox)]

@Jenovas-argent-dawn

Wow

I never said it was amazing. It is not. I simply did it because some people, maybe you actually, were all out of arguments and ended up with the “well then get at least my rating you’ll see if you’re right”. I had time, I did it, and I was right. Thank you for your participation.

[Yojeong-kazzak]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Then call for a rework and list this as a point there rather than singling it out.

Did you read the title of the post? x_x
If it was about entire rework of feral/boomies I dont have anything to say considering I dont play them. So my ideas could very well make it worse and not better.
Giving ideas on things that wouldnt break cyclone but wouldnt make it completely useless is a different story.
Then give into discussions on how different specs could be changed based on the cyclone changes.

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Cyclone seems strong on paper, but really, the range is too punishing. While it’s still very strong, it has huge issues and this thread simply looks over them.

Depending on how people argue about certain things sure, cyclone has been an issue for years. Its not just recent when ppl complained about it just for the pure fact you cannot be healed inside it while only being able to be dispelled by trinket, immunity or MD which got nerfed hard.
The instant any of the druid spec overperforms, cyclone makes it worse.
Cyclone got buffed from 10.0 (S1) - 10.1 (S2). Sure, Fear also got buffed but even if you can overlap them, you can still get dispelled and healed while being feared. I used to play warlock before and know full well how strong Fear is though.

And if the thread “looks over them” maybe put in some actual good input and what changes it would be forced to happen if any of those changes would go through or why those changes would be extremely bad. Or give their own opinion on what could be “tested”.
So far what ive read is “Nothing wrong, denied.”

[Gox-aggramar]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

It’s 3 yards… is it really?

It’s 5 yards, but it definitely makes a huge difference

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Yojeong-kazzak

Did you read the title of the post? x_x

Yes, it didn’t call for Druid rework, but rather for Cyclone rework and if you read the post under it, it’s clear it doesn’t mean rework but rather hard nerf.
Therefore I am right and stand 100% by what I said.
Call for rework for the specs and don’t single out their single offensive advantage when they’re clearly underperforming at the moment.
“Reworking” their advantage to be horrible instead isn’t what I mean by reworking the specs.

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Gox-aggramar

It’s 5 yards

No, it’s 3 yards. Don’t “correct” me with wrong information.

But it’s pretty telling that you don’t even know what you talk about.

[Yojeong-kazzak]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Yes, it didn’t call for Druid rework, but rather for Cyclone rework and if you read the post under it, it’s clear it doesn’t mean rework but rather hard nerf.

And people could easily counter it with other opinions instead of “I see no issues with it”. Or bring other discussions along with it instead of “nerf it and we are doomed”.

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Therefore I am right and stand 100% by what I said.

You consider yourself right, thats why you are right.

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Call for rework for the specs and don’t single out their single offensive advantage when they’re clearly underperforming at the moment.

Boomies are underperforming?

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

“Reworking” their advantage to be horrible instead isn’t what I mean by reworking the specs.

And I never said that. Dont need to try to make it sound worse than it is.
Reworking spec means reworking the entire or part of the spec. Not just 1 thing.
When they buffed defensives for WW that wasnt a rework.
When they changed skills and how rets play thats a rework.

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

No, it’s 3 yards. Don’t “correct” me with wrong information.

For boomies its 5.
For resto its 5.
For feral its 3.

[Shadenox-ravencrest (Shadenox)]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

No, it’s 3 yards. Don’t “correct” me with wrong information

Astral Influence behaves differently with the spec you select. It is 3 for Feral and Guardian, and 5 for Balance and Restoration.

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

But it’s pretty telling that you don’t even know what you talk about

Ironic.

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Yojeong-kazzak

And I never said that. Dont need to try to make it sound worse than it is.
Reworking spec means reworking the entire or part of the spec. Not just 1 thing.

Again, thread didn’t call for rework of spec, I already told you.
It clearly says Rework Cyclone. Cyclone isn’t Druid spec. It’s a Druid spell.