Some classes still target capped destroying the class for M+

Community General Discussion
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Well I kind of agree with that mentality. It cant be the only parameter they use, but it has to be one of the parameters.

Look at it this way: What is the 1% exactly? How do you measure that? Because there are some really good players out there that do not participate in the “rat-race” to the top.

Point being that if you rework a spec, and it turns out to be “ok” in the hands of a normal player, but absolutely bonkers OP if piloted by skilled hands, you have a problem.

It means that the 1% you talk about will absolutely dominate every form of content. And will not leave any room for anyone else.

So spec reworks have to take both the 1% and the 99% in mind. And IMO I think they did an OKish job overall across the board.

All blizzard needs to do is continue to tune, every week, week after week. They cannot let the specs sit idle in power for a whole season. It’s what gets things boring after a while.

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yes you certianly have a problem

the main problem is the design of classes .

very many of wow specs are just way way to overcomplicated

the 1st problem was when they tried to do the pruning back in wod i think streamers did a backlash about "much class identity such spells " so they given up .

2nd problem - was how streamers reacted to AP powers in BFA - which were mostly passive but super fun when they were proccing - this was the 2nd very big chance to prune a lot of classes and move a lof gameplay to passive seffect.

so as resoult now we are all left in a mess.

they should cut like 30-50 % of keybinds from a lot of specs making them much more intuitive to play and much mroe fun - that would be a very good start.

classes like shamans / warlocks have ridiculous button bloat

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Blizzard is adapting to a new market, new players. Myself included by the way.

They could prune everything to the bare minimum, like in Darktide where the game is literally 3 buttons.

But then the content would have to be the challenge. With more swirlies, and would require more reaction time.

So be careful what you wish for. :slight_smile:

Nah. I agree with those “streamers”.

Random stuff is OK. But not if its OP powerful like it was in BFA.

Think of walking into an arena, and 10% of the time you get 1-shot by someone because he got a lucky proc. Not fun. For both players, because for him, 90% of the time he will get mauled.

It happens today in M+ with DK. If blood beast procs then the pack melts. If it dosent, the risk of wiping is 50/50 cause its like playing with 2 DDs.

And then Passive Effects are boring as hell. Plus, 50% of the talent trees are passive. So they kept that functionality, nothing to complain here.

Some not enough IMO. Here is my opinion:

Classes have to be designed in a way that there is a basic gameplay that allows you to clear the whole content. Problem is, you got people of different skill levels that demand different things. And class design is supposed to accommodate for all of them.

For example: Take your 20 keybinds. Simply remove 15 of them from the bar and only use 5. How much performance drop would that be? For most specs, were talking like 30/40% performance drop?

Well now the question is: Can you do a +2 using only 5 buttons? YES. For 99% of specs.

The rest of the buttons simply add depth. So between a +2 with 5 buttons, and a +18 using all 30 keybinds at 300 APM there is a range. And within that range people with different skill levels have to fit.

I am very passionate about healer DPS, and that is a prime example of what I mean with this philosophy. Can you do “low level” (+2 to +14) dungeons with ZERO dps talents, and with out pressing a single DPS spell? You absolutely can and you will be successful.

But if you want to take your spec further, for “fun” you can optimize healer DPS with more spells and talents. And that gives extra “fun”.

Shamans dont have button bloat. That’s ridiculous.

You assume that having 10, 1 or 2 minute CD totems implies that I have to use them all the time, OR that I even have to key bind them.

You dont have to keybind everything, you can leave some things as “click” (old school). And you dont have to use everything all the time on CD for every pack.

So we technically have 30 buttons. But realistically, we are only using 4 or 5. The rest are very situational.

In any given fight, I use 6 spells all the time (Riptide, HS, HW, CH, CB totem, HR). And maybe 1 or 2 totems more that I use once or twice in a 5 minute boss fight. The rest of the stuff remains unused for that particular fight.

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6akpRG9VyfZBcQ74?fight=3&type=damage-done&start=4665998&end=4956857&source=73

The first 4 minutes or so up to and including part of the first boss in darkflame cleft.

Damage spells: Flame shock, lightning bolt, chain lightning, thunderstorm, lava burst. 5 buttons.

Healing buttons you pressed: Riptide, chain heal, healing surge, healing rain, HTT, spirit link, unleash life, trinket, stone bulwark totem, ascendance. 10 buttons. (No healing wave, lets call that 11).

Other: Bloodlust, astral shift, spirit wolf. 3 buttons.

We’re at 19 and I haven’t even added in interrupt, cap totem, dispel. We’re now at 22.

Disagree, we’ve reached 22 often used buttons, we haven’t even touched on quite a lot of things like purge, the 2 min speedy totem, earth ele and and and. Thats a far cry from your 6.

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You kind of neglected the rest of my wall of text (I dont blame you though… :D)

Lets break it down:

Do you need all this for a +9? NOPE. 5 buttons gone. Plus I have them binded as click on cast. I have a “target box” right above my partyframes to do DD. Basically, Left Click is Riptide if target is friendly, or LB if enemy.

Plus Unleash life because I play farseer. But I could play totemic and that is 1 button less to press.

These are the buttons I spam. 5 buttons.

All those are CDs. Used ONCE, maybe twice in the fight.

BL is ONCE every 10 minutes. AS is 1.5 min CD. And SW is the only one I really spam for mobility. And you forgot gust of wind as well.

2 buttons.

So. Total REAL count is:

22 ABILITIES.

6 Keybinded Buttons (1, 2, R, F, T, G, C)

4 healing spells binded on click on party-frames (no buttons).
4 DD spells binded on click on party-frames (no buttons).

And the rest is simply on the Left of my screen as click and use. No buttons there. Why? Cause you use them every 3 minutes. No need to waste precious key-space on something you will only press 10 times at BEST in a whole run.

And the realistic count of buttons you need to do a +9 is : 6. 3 healing spells. HR. Ghost wolf. Thats IT. The rest not required. Its just optimization (and I include healer CDs here).

Having 22 abilities dosent mean you have to use them. It only means that IF you use them, you will increase in performance. And for each one you use, it will be an even greater marginal increase. So going from 6 spells to 10 spells will be a greater increase than from 18 to 22 spells used.

You dont need to heal like Laren in a +18 to do a +9. Or god forbid a +2.

If you remove buttons though, what you do is FORCE me to heal a +18 as you would a +2. Which would make it so much more boring. And removes options.

And that is what the 22 abilities are: OPTIONS. They are not a requirement. And same thing goes for DDs and tanks.

And with this philosophy in mind, IMO RShaman needs even MORE buttons. It dosent have enough. You can go back to my healer DD 35 post to understand what I mean by this.

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I didn’t. We fundamentally disagree. You’re misrepresenting things intentionally to make a point (badly).

You ignore every damage dealing button you pressed and sure, you can say “I’m a healer, I don’t have to dd” - but really?

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OK. Lets turn it arround. Lets talk about a DPS instead of a healer. That way there is no ambiguity.

You get a DD. With 22 buttons. With those 22 buttons he can do 3 to 4M overall DPS.

You get a DD. Tell him to use ZERO CDs. And just use the 6 buttons he spams the most.

OK. His performance will drop. Absolutely. To what? 2M overall? A 50% drop? That is a LOT of perfomance loss.

So a boss in +10 has ~ 600M HP. If I remember correcty.

3 DDs doing 50% less DPS than “optimal” would be doing a total of 6M DPS. Lets chunk that down even further to 4M overall DPS with 3 DDs using only 6 buttons and no CDs.

The boss would take ~ 2.5 min to kill. Which is a reasonalbe ammount of time for a boss kill.

This is an absurd example of course. But it does show what the extreme of “not using abilties” means.

If you now get that DPS, tell him to use his 6 most spammed spells + CDs… well… more than enough for the 10+. Here is the thing:

  • Sometimes using half your skills but well executed does more DPS than trying to use ALL your skills but badly executed. That is a fact of WoW. I have personally witnessed this myself, and with many others.

But the existance of all the other skills allows you work towards something.

BM Hunters used to be like that. They used to do decent DPS with 4 buttons and you could do 99% of content with just that. But they had 10 more they almost never used. But if they DID use them, they became gods.

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Just to clarify: This is what button bloat means for me…

Spells that literally do the same thing.

For example, in RShaman:

Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt. I think this is ridiculous. They both do the same thing (ST damage). This is unecessary.

Blizzard needs to make a choice which one to keep. There is nothing that prevents them from making an exception for RShamans where Lava Surge works with Lightning Bolt, and we get a guaranteed crit if we have some dot on him. Which brings me to:

Frost Shock and Fire Shock. Same thing. Just one has a CD the other one dosent. Choose 1. I would simply go full with water/lightning and just give us frost shock as a dot that guarantees a crit of Lightning Bolt and makes “lightning surges”. DONE.

We dont need to be a “lesser version of an Ele Shaman”. Nor it is written anywhere that we have to share exactly the same spells and mechanics as an Ele Shaman.

As for healing:

The eternal discussion of Healing Surge and Healing Wave. They are both ST spells. But they come from a time long gone. Its “legacy baggage” we have.

Simply merge them into the same thing. DONE.

THAT is button bloat.

Having many buttons, is NOT button bloat.

I have Cap totem, but I dont use it on bosses cause they cant be stunned. It might as well not exist in that situation. And I have wind rush totem to move faster, which I use mainly between pulls. All other situations it might as well not exist.

And both those buttons are mutually exclusive. There are really few situations where I have to use both at the same time.

So that is how I get to my “6 buttons”. Having to use 6 buttons total, but 6 different buttons depending on the situation is something that can only be good for a spec. Reducing buttons to just 6 for ALL situations is dumming down specs and removing their unique identity, gameplay, and overall fun.

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Its their mentality that they just listen to the general 1 % on wowhead. Not their own player base.

They could make the whole talent three work (if they wanted too) problem is meta people and hard cap spells.

If they wanted to they could make a build for shadow were we are instant damage dealers that deal with mindbenders instead of dots.

Just saying they don’t pay their devs money to think outside the box. They are only trying to make Old outdated boring stuff work again instead of seeing looking forward.

Let void form die let the boring mind spike die. Its not fun. They haven’t even made indicators for how many mind spikes you have to cast you empowered mind blast.

Just saying their effort in this rework business is D not even trying.

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So a hunter dressed in robes? Pet mindbenders doing the damage and a whole lot of instant cast spells.

I agree that blizz hasent hit its target many times. But I also give them the benefit of the doubt. A priest cant be a pet-class. There are other pet classes that do exactly the same already. It would simply be a copy-paste.

And that is why devs seem so alien to you. They have the perspective of all 37 specs and their job is to make each of them unique. All your perspective allows you to do is to grabbing specific talents of the SP tree and say: This is fun, make more of it.

Which is also fair to be honest. And blizzard should listen to your concerns. But you should also be aware of their POV as well.

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Their dev team could be so much more if people moved on from Legion and lived in the now.

Shadowlands showed a promising thing with mindbender.

They could do so much more with shadow priest rather than a turret spec i rather have them do more execute meme with it have mindbender be its own thing that spawns and cleaves.

Shadow Word: Death has a high chance to summon a Shadowfiend for 5 sec when damaging targets below 20% health.

make this talent a thing for set bonus nr 3 in season 3 make it so
mind bender has a chance to always spawn during crit with shadoword death/mindblast and work with the talent Idol Of yS’raash

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You should totally go and alt bump your dead thread in the priest forums about it again.

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their POV is to make money but time will tell if they can revive the class we will see the shadow crash thing is decent but they should go away from void torrent it isnt fun that you can’t move with it without having to specc in to it also they could make empowered mindspike/mind flay be void torrent instead.

void torrent as a whole is so slow.

will look forward to season 3 with optimism season 2 is bit sadge. We are still a Pi bot.

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true that they could make a third specc instant damage priest and let the other two specc be turret specc as is they got so much potential in their dev team already.

priest could have 1 more specc with it being mindbender.

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From what you have shown, its called a Demo Warlock. That ramps up mini-pets that do things. Of if you want your mind bender to be really beefy, then its an UDK. That summons a few beefy pets.

Exactly. And how would you go about that? By making your personal wishes come true? Or to try and make everyone’s wishes come true. Shamans, warriors, warlocks… ect…

And how would hunters and warlocks feel if blizzard said that they were giving their signature, class defining abilities to priests. That on TOP of all that have PI, Fortitude, can off heal, have shields… ect…

So now you know why you cannot make specs have “everything”. Or be too similar to other specs.

And lets get real. This is an absolutely ridiculous proposition.

There is a reason why ALL casters have to… you know… cast. It has to do with geometry, not game design.

When you have a boss or a pack at some point, you have casters that can ocupy the whole room and keep doing DPS, while me melees can only be really close to that boss.

When you do a swirly or some other mechanic, casters have a SIGNIFICANT advantage to be able to move in any direction. In some dungeons, they can even sit on a ledge (the Z direction) and completely ignore mechanics.

While the melees, all it takes is 1 swirly and moving 2 pixels to the left and they do ZERO damage.

And that is why melees have instant cast abilities. And ranged specs do not.

So basically. If you dont like loosing DPS because you have to move. Maybe L2P and simply move better. It’s what we all did. And if the “caster” situation is not to your liking, then reroll a melee.

And finally, I am so tired of priest whiners wanting the world… You guys got double PS, PI, Fortitude, Mind soothe (on a dungeon pool full of humanoids)… among many things. There has ALWAYS been a meta priest since DF at-least.

And now you want instant cast spells? And a kick? And an AoE stop? What else do you want? A foot massage too while your at it? You want my SLT as well?

Sure ! Why not. Lets make Priests have everything. Instant cast like a melee, but with out having to be at melee. Pets that do damage for him so the players dont have to hurt their fingers by actually pressing buttons… Lets give them a 12s kick too… no… a 5s CD kick. Cause they are priests…

After the drama with RShamans in S1, which all of you hypocrites screaming “nerf RShaman”… and after 1/2 of S1 and, as its going, S2 as well with a Priest as meta… you are all quiet. And even asking for MORE stuff…

Get… atta… here…

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Very true tbh

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Nah i but their most expensive expack each year they release to hope in the stockholmsyndrome they one day fix the class system. But its mixed

Waiting for season 3 this season is already over.

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buy* <-----------

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only reason unholy DK pumps in m+ is the auto application of Epidemic and Dots

imagine if your class could auto apply 3 dots to EVERY mob

you take that away from DK and it does barely anything. even with death and decay and cleave

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My god you give up fast.

So if SP is not FOTM you dont play or what? :smiley: