SUBTLETY: we need it back in the game


(Shadenox) #23

TDF nerfs where a huge hit yeah, they made the spec go from borderline playable to quite unviable…

Eeeh, who knows, maybe some staff members wanted easy wins :stuck_out_tongue:


(Retierx) #24

we seem to beat destro teams pretty easily post-nerf tbh. seems like the easiest matchup we have out of the common comps. but yes unholy is basically unkillable for our comp. he needs to die in the stuns, which is really hard. we usually just go someone else.

hero cleave (really hard to kill, survive until priest dead or oom), any sort of TSG or ret warrior or such (ok to kill but takes some time, and priest is dead before) and both assa frost rmd (slow root kidney on me to stop me from playing the game while chain ccing my mage until they win) and assa fire rmpala (gas pedal all over us) are really hard.

pretty sure assa rogue is the single most common spec i face out of any class. so far i’ve met 1 other sub rogue and 0 outlaw rogues. according to xunamate i should see 1 sub rogue every 11 assa rogues but i’ve probably seen like 100 assa rogues at this point with 1 sub rogue. i asked my friend who doesn’t play 3s with me and he said he can’t recall seeing a single sub rogue.

yes it’s hard to tell how much of outlaw not seeing play is outlaw being weak and how much is that it’s awful in the meta. building tempo by swapping around a lot does not work when everyone is a tank with loads of self healing. it doesn’t suit sub particularly well either but sub is a spec that goes for structured setups with cross to try to 100-0 somebody with stuns which works a bit better at least because most classes don’t self heal much while stunned and fire mage burst is almost high enough to make up for how trash sub’s damage is.

really random nerf actually. makes sense to nerf traits that are way ahead of the rest, but doing that to a spec that was already not particularly good in raids and trash in mythic+ with no compensation was weird. now there are 4 survival hunters for every sub rogue in mythic as well as i think 70 assa rogues.

you would need some pretty huge sustained buffs for that to be a thing. i also don’t want to play a sustained pressure spec, if i did i wouldn’t be playing subtlety.

i thought it was. we try to do clean setups, opponents try to disrupt said setups and trade cds to stay alive. we try to run them out of cds and kill them before they kill us. some teams you walk all over because they don’t stop or they overlap cds massively, some teams do a really good job stopping you and rotating cds and it’s hard. this is still what we’re doing, just the damage isn’t there.

some of the most fun matchups of legion were sub rogue mirrors. sub rmps mainly, but also thugs. extremely fast-paced and explosive and the team that played better basically always came out on top.

and cheap shot everyone is really an oversimplification. at some point people grow wise to what you’re doing and if all you do is kidney cheap cheap you will lose because during the globals it takes they will stop the go or pre-use cds or run and line or what have you. it’s a continuous arms race of better setups vs better disruption.

i have enough mobility that i can connect fine, it’s more an issue of crippling poison, frost mage in general and chains of ice cutting your legs off.

sub’s ms is fine. it just doesn’t fit the spec so it doesn’t do anything.

healers doing big healing is fine, just need to have enough damage to match it. and i don’t really think it’s a healer problem anyway, it’s dpsers being too tanky and having too much self-healing.

there is counterplay. if the setup doesn’t have perfect cross then you can disrupt it. and then there’s rotating cds and trinkets to survive and disrupt. if i blind or kidney the healer and my mage and/or priest cover everyone at the right second to deny dispel, stops or pre-used defensives and their team has no trinkets then yes there is nothing they can do but then it was a clean go with them having nothing left, they should die.

i could see the haste being enough if you have like 3x first dance i guess.

arguably the main purpose of dance is stuns so your teammates can connect cc and damage and the opponents can’t run or use defensives. even ignoring the energy concerns, second (and third) dances are significantly less useful than the first because they’re on stun dr, you’ve already used your mfd evis and you’ve already used cold blood. on top of that if you don’t dance immediately symbols and prey are gone as well.

besides, gloomblade does way more damage than shadowstrike on high armor, but shadowstrike gives 2 pts for evis and you get dance haste, but it’s not like oh man i’m popping dance i’m gonna do so much damage now.

restealths were a big thing so i don’t really agree with running out of goes quickly if you went every 30s. besides, our games as sub rmp are basically always short, win or lose. even in this season the longest game i can remember is 2% dampening (besides ones that have gone to a 2v2). actually there was this one spriest hpala that went on for like 7 minutes because we kept running and they kept rotating sac disperse fade.

you could often cc both dps, and even if you couldn’t you had a druid and mage. not being able to shimmer is meh, deep sheep was really easy to land without any help from rogue with blink and blazing speed. didn’t need to stun healer all that much, the other 2 had that under control.

i haven’t seen pika or whaazz play sub in 3s in forever. the thug you talk about was stungodx and jellybeans unless there was another one which i doubt. but yeah, sub fire 2s is the one single thing that subtlety is still good at in this game. trash in raids, trash in m+, trash in 3s, trash in healer dps 2s, but sub fire is good. not cause sub does good damage in that comp, just because it can help set things up well for the mage to 1 shot things.

maybe. but i’m not gonna play any more sub this season i think. it sucks, a lot.


(Retierx) #27

i mean hunters rogues and warlocks are all really good in raid atm. sub is bad, sure, but assa and outlaw are not.


#30

I meant that some specs of the above not all.


(Retierx) #31

i made a thread on the class development forum. be nice if people could check it out and maybe post their thoughts. probably doesn’t do anything but maybe by some miracle it has some effect.


(Hadow) #32

I would gladly renounce to some CC chaining for more kit-independency for subtletly, honestly…


(system) closed #33

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