Indeed.
This is quite interesting btw even when they try to address an issue they rarely succeed to do so and just make random stuff nobody asked for and that won’t solve any of class or balance issue.
Ye but this whole conversation is just stupid to be fair. He’s addressed the most minimal amount of issues with each class that he can see.
The Devs have got themselves into a right pickle with all this. Not one I can see themselves fixing very easily that would make the majority happy
Nerfing mutilate energy cost will now feel absolutely terrible moving forward. But what do they do nerf energy costs of other abilities? Buff the other ability damage but then we will get you moaning that saber slash not only slaps but it kills everything from the grave as well?
You get what I’m saying this list of changes is garbage in my opinion. It’s covered a tiny % of issues with sod. And it’s got a big list of comments cos it looks like it jarred with people lol
At least from my PoV of having played all the tanks these address the most glaring issues. Granted I barely PvP but I don’t see how any of these would negatively affect PvP balance.
Hunter runes are anything but overtuned. They require a huge overhaul because you have a mess like being able to have Lone Wolf and Beast Mastery at the same time. Heart of the Lion is mandatory and should be made a book without the personal hunter stats instead.
you gotta be a troll if you think doing a critted starsurge/SWD (both doing 500-600) in melee which can be spammed is balanced and it is a CP generator to use on actual finishing moves.
This entire mindset of Mutilate has to be stronger than literally ANY 5cp Eviscirate/Envenom needs to be addressed proper Noone is using Eviscirate over Mutilate. Rogues in PvP use it for BtE or Kidney, Rogues in PvE use it for Slice and Dice and if thats up its Envenom, which hits less than a Mutilate.
Nerf this overtuned BS and buff Envenom or something, Mutilate has no right to be this busted.
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I means. It’s not more powerful than envenom. Envenom in raids is hitting super hard bro.
And like every other rogue on this forum. If you nerf mutilate in P2 you literally remove rogue from the raid roster. They already have absolute pain getting a raid.
You constantly throw out misinformation here because youre super angry about rogues. Chill out man
Raids =/= PvP. You would be happy if you could use abilities other than Mutilate/BtE/QD/Shadowstep in PvP.
Also there’s stupid amounts of setup for Envenom to even hit for a decent number (Nature damage boost from boomie/Shaman, epic fistweapon/CoE), Mutilate literally is 1 button for easy value and spammable af, and it just needs armor reduction to do gods work.
It’s not misinformation according to your last log with your own guild.
And there are different fights with different values/killtimes, some of them show Mutilate doing more over a fight than Envenom, provided you add both MH and OH damage.
example1
h ttps://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4jdphDXmgAGzWbNr#fight=17&type=damage-done&source=17
example2
h ttps://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/VbP9tqRDwgTKB4CW#boss=-2&difficulty=0&wipes=2&type=damage-done&source=10
example3
h ttps://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ynGRc9jKzCMfwPFv#type=damage-done&boss=-2&difficulty=0&wipes=2&source=34
you yourself play a tank, seems like you got a raid roster. low effort rogues do not get a spot. Also buffing Envenom to actually be more significant in PvE than MH/OH Mutilate combined and nerfing Mutilate for the sake of PvP is a fair deal.
priest dots for 220 ticks are fine (and can do multiple dots, on more people at once, be in range, have bubble, have disperion,…), but mutilate for 150-350/weapon (depending on CRIT and ARMOR) and costing energy is not fine. What is wrong with you?
paladin doing 1500dmg in 3 attacks is also fine, but mutilate is not.
there is nothing strong about mutilate if you got armor.
if we measure energy (mana/energy/rage) cost of mutilate and damage it does, then its not really OP.
Once the energy depletes from initial burst of (3 mutilates), you can use it every 4 seconds (energy regen rate) if you dont use any other ability (like stun, gouge, blind,…). it euals to 4 second cooldown, if only spamming one button nothing else.
Excuse me for my ignorance, but how much damage can a arcane mage or balance druid do in those 4 seconds, and how much damage does a rogue do in those 4 seconds with mutilate?
Coz I see bdruids casually doing 3 (or 2.5?) sec cast time starfires for 800+ dmg but I rarely see even on youtube rogues critting for 400+ dmg per weapon with mutilate.
so while druid can starfire for 1066,6666666667 dmg in 4 seconds, rogue can mutilate for 700? with auto-attacks, 900 maybe. Druids damage is not mitigated by anyone (spell resist), while rogues is (armor). and you can clearly see this when trying to mutilate a warrior or paladin, vs a mage. even on mage it is clearly visible when he uses his defensive buffs. the damage reduction from armor on mutilate is insane.
and before you write something stupid, just checked the warcraft logs and compared mutilate of best performing rogue with best performing paladins [Seal of Martyrdom],
Seal: 192 dps
Mutilate (both weapons): 135 dps.
So I officially now cry here TO NERF PALADINS SEAL IS OP OMG
Exorcism 172dps…
You as paladin have 2 more op abilities than rogue.
druid shred 240dps.
starfire 216dps
WHERE IS MUTILATE CLOSE ENOUGH to be that OP broken overtuned?
envenom: 85dps
autoattack: 160dps
every 3seconds that is, already nerfing the damage output by loads. you can unload 3 mutilates in that time.
you mean 150-400 per weapon per mutilate? Armor is HARDLY a factor and it crits very consistently at min 35% crit. Boomie/SP literally still melt to 500-600 Mutilate MH/OH combined, dispersion is literally just delaying death to Mutilate spam.
It takes 4s for your 40 energy to regenerate, it takes 6s for a Starsurge/12s for a SWD just to compare the values.
toomany variables for arcane mage, arcane blast got a 2.5s cast timer without any travel time, then theres RNG with Missle Barrage proc and that could still hit stuff before the 4th second, and that one has travel time. Or you go 3min mage and basically deal 2.5k while emptying your mana. At least that is CD dependent.
Balance has 3 spells to worry about, Starsurge (instant) could crit for 600 at best → Starfire (2.5s, no traveltime) also doesn’t even remotely hit 1.5k damage more like 1.3k ish, this isn’t getting buffed by Dreamstate.
Rogues literally unload 150-400dps (275dps avg) per weapon per mutilate, times 3. Assuming the weapons are poisoned and you manage a poison onto the target that 150-400 becomes 180-480dps (330dps avg) per weapon per Mutilate.
first avg mutilate 550 damage (275dps x2)
poison got on so another 20% damage boost to mutilate
snd avg mutilate 660 damage
third muti 660 damage.
thats past 1.7k damage within 3mutilates.
and you can go assume that on people with 30-45% damage reduction from armor on both SP/Bdruids, its even more on real clothies like Mage/Lock.
you already went ahead and did it yourself.
There’s hardly any improvement to be done to Mutilate except Armor Reductions/High DPS daggers.
Ret paladins literally use a 3min CD on ACP, a 30min CD on a battle chicken trinket, Jackhammer (insanely rare drop from Uldaman that has a attackspeed proc) and a 10min CD from the BS helmet if they bothered with that, everything swinging as close as to 1s while refreshing their Seal after a judgement, Exo when crits occur etc.
You do 37-57dps less if a pally is buring 3-30min CDs and at everything lining up perfectly.
All a rogue literally has to do is: Burn CB CD, helmet CD and belt CD + having easy obtainable weapons. Any ret has put in more effort getting a good setup of weapons than rogues ever will.
Also thank you for bringing up the DPS values of Envenom compared to Mutilate, that’s the entire point that I’ve tried to make. Envenom should NOT do less DPS than a CP generator. Trying to move the PvP damage more into PvE damage.
Has ret in the history of wow ever been good dps?
Also basically all those logs of envemon vs mutilate is showing envemon higher, as well as the additional Poison procs making envemon higher again.
Im super excited for you for when they do change mutilate again, and rogues get something else to destroy paladins.
anyways. GL in the future bro, trying to wind you up has been fun.
I’m out. SoD feels drained of life and like the devs have been sidelined with cata so my interest in blizzard gaming feels like a chore. Which I dont want, Ciao
I don’t think it can be argued that Mutilate is too strong. It’s a 40-energy-cost and 2-combo-point-generator attack that also hits hard, and it doesn’t even have a positional requirement. Ambush is barely a thing due to it.
If you’re serious about PvP and take Subtlety talents, it only costs 80 energy to have 5 combo points 75% of the time or 4 the other 25%!
Not even Hemorrhage could do that with its low 35 energy cost. This is why rogues can’t use anything else. Mutilate is simply too good. Rogues need more build diversity than just being pigeonholed into the same play style in both PvP and PvE.
Ok but the 4% increase is only for yourself. Rogues are not supposed to buff the raid.
Also nerf Mutilate and buff Saber slash
Saying rogues are not supposed to increase raid damage through a debuff is just flat out wrong when the main thing they were brought for in classic was their IEA. IEA is practically useless because priests exist so rogue is missing an entire aspect of their utility.
Delete shamans and everything else can wait.
I obviously meant apart from IEA. Do not turn a damage class into a utility class. Give it some damage instead
Well, why not? It is the season of discovery after all. Rogues can tank now, quite well at that, why not give them some utility as well? It helps with finding groups if your class is more versatile and can fill more roles and bring more to the party.
I agree with that, lets make them bad dps with 5-10% dps increase for casters
I honestly believe that should not have happened
It ruins class fantasy. Everyone should specialize in something. It’s not fun when everyone can do everything
I know, you want fantasy when you are on the top of dps meters, you are not really unique in that.