agree 100%
7 Likes
Thanks Crazy!
Edit: talents have changed quite a bit. Check Edits/Changes for specifics.
Have been thinking about alternative -Level 100- talents to the ones mentioned above. Or at least adding some additional effects those mentioned.
I like how they interact with the major CD for the spec. Making it more of a tie-in to your rotation(not used as often as Bestial Wrath is for BM, but at the same time, not a “use-once-or-twice-per-fight” -CD). Always liked how fluid the rotation for ranged SV felt.
3 Likes
Completely agree, LnL explosive trap and black arrow were amazing, no idea why they changed back to melee its just not a great spec to play
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Blizzard main reason - changes for the sake of changes.
3 Likes
Most likely they wanted to add a bit more variety into the hunter class. At least by going in another direction as opposed to how Survival used to work.
The idea of adding in a melee spec-option for hunters, I wouldn’t say that it’s a bad thing. I just wish it could’ve been done without removing the ranged spec we used to have. As I amongst many others loved that spec for years and years.
Even though I would prefer if we got the previous version with Explosive Shot, Black Arrow and Serpent Sting back as it’s own spec, with the same spec-fantasy overhaul as all specs got in Legion there ofc is another option as well. That is to give it back to us through the MM spec(talents).
Made a post on how the basis of it could be done here:
Who knows why…
2 Likes
I think they took away Black Arrow because they’ll add it to the next class, the Dark Ranger. They even experimented with the Black Arrow summoning a Dark Minion to taunt the target.
Idd they did. For the MM hunters who wanted to play without a permanent pet this was helpful when doing solo content.
I very much doubt we’ll see a new class going by this theme as a base. I mean, how would you design multiple specs/playstyles for such a class?
Survival is not a pure melee, if you have played other melee classes then played survival the thing that stands out is the huge amount of damage you can do from range, only damage ability is melee (mongoose bite) and with aspect of the hawk you can use it from ranged anyway. In PvP surv feels very different from other melee I have played like windwalker and rogue because of the ranged aspect.
1 Like
Am I correct when saying that you are responding to Benadryl’s post above here?
Anyway, you are very much right when saying that Survival isn’t really a melee spec. At least not in the traditional sense that we’re used to.
Most of the abilities found in this spec can be used from afar. And when activating a CD you can be 100% ranged for a limited time.
Was this an intended design choice? Most likely.
Now, we’ve seen a fair amount of people posting in various forums/platforms since the new Survival was implemented, in regards to their personal preferences. Some want the spec to be almost a pure melee spec with little ranged influence and some want the spec to be about what it currently is now. And everything in between really.
There isn’t really a wrong side here as it’s all about what people prefer.
I am one of those that want to see the core aspects of what the ranged survival spec we had pre-Legion was all about, for those aspects to make a return into the game. The immersion of you as a hunter focusing on using animal venoms/toxins and other explosives rather than the bit that is marksmanship, when using your ranged weapon.
In the past, Survival did have some pet influences as well. Nothing close to BM ofc but you could if you wanted to, choose to play with a pet. Which is one aspect that I’ve chosen to include in my proposed spec above.
I want to stress that, my intent is NOT to remove the current melee-Survival we have on live. I believe if major changes are to be made to a class, on the level of introducing entirely new specs/playstyles then they should be added separate to existing ones.
2 Likes
Briz is Pure Hunter all Hail Briz " hunters only " ![:smiley:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
i am on my druid but i main hunter so y xd
2 Likes
Doesn’t have to be only hunters!
Haha, jokes aside, thanks for the kind words @Crazyhps !
I decided a few days ago to bring this over to the US hunter forum, mainly because it shows much more activity in terms of daily visitors. Who knows, maybe it sways someone.![:wink:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
Also included some of my key arguments and motivational points as to why there should be a 4th spec for the Hunter class, in that post.
That spec being the DoT-based ranged Survival spec.
I very, very much want my ranged SV back. My hunter was but a low-level alt until I first got to try SV in the MoP alpha/beta, and instantly fell in love with it. Became my main that day. But Legion brutally murdered the spec, taking something that many loved and replaced it with a niche. Because that’s what it is, a niche.
I doubt we will ever see it again, considering they worked on replacing talents, added artifacts etc. But my hopes are that we can adapt MM a bit to make it somewhat feel like the old SV.
I’ve made some recommendations on the BfA class forum, sadly nobody gave a damn:
I just want it back. Hunters have a very poor gameplay experience nowadays, imho.
7 Likes
PS. Sry for the long reply, I tend to make them that way
So lovely to hear 
The current iteration has a select number of players who like/love it. No doubt in that. I get why they did what they did when changing it.
I just hate that they decided to remove an entire playstyle in order to make way for a different one. Neither the current melee survival nor the prior ranged version are similar to one another, or to any of the other 2 hunters specs that we have. Essentially, you can have a base of these 4 specs for the hunter class existing at the same time and they would all carry their own unique identity.
All of them caters to the core of the class’ fantasy as well, in their own way.
A little while back I decided to bring this suggestion post onto the US forum to see what they though about it. I choose to include some additional arguments/motivation for why the spec deserve to be in the game. You can find that below here:
Motivation/arguments
First:
In an interview(this has been referenced in other topics as well), we were told that one of the reasons that led to the decision to rework the Survival spec from ranged to melee was the view on the ranged spec and it’s “similarities” to that of Marksmanship.
Interview: https:// www.gameaxis. com/interviews/interview-wow-legions-lead-class-designer-senior-producer/
And then Survival Hunter…
Travis: It was another one that was missing its niche. It’s kind of like Marksman except more traps? Or different arrows? So it was kind of missing that “what is the core fantasy?”
Now this was ofc the opinion of one person within the development team, or maybe it was the general opinion of the entire team. I don’t know.
But if you ask me, as someone who played that spec continuously from the moment we got it for Cata up until it being removed for Legion. I loved that playstyle and I certainly did not feel that it was similar to MM.
If they were similar then I wouldn’t have minded to play them both. But I did mind.
Besides, the thing that, IMO makes the above a non-argument is the fact that this was done at the same time as every single spec in the game saw changes being made to it/them, some more extensive than others, to the point of overhauls. The main theme was now going to be “Spec Identity” and “Spec Fantasy”.
So…if Survival at the time was to similar to MM, then this would’ve been the perfect time to iterate on them both to make them more unique?
Second:
We have seen comments in the past where it has been stated that giving classes additional specs is not warranted. 3 specs for each class is more than enough(with some exceptions…).
Sure, in some cases this might very well be true. But if you look at the Hunter class and the three existing specs, how they play and what their intended fantasy is.
Would you not agree that adding in a 4th spec that focus on DoT-management as a core, would this not actually fit?
Beast Mastery - the spec that is meant to really embrace the bond between the hunter and his/her companion.
Marksmanship - the true ranger. He/she does not rely on a pet. They make it their mission to murder anything in their path by focusing on hitting that perfect spot with a well aimed shot. (You can still play with a pet, but the spec does not promote that gameplay in any way).
Survival(melee) - you master the style of fighting alongside your pet, getting into the thick of it, fighting as one. With some extra tricks up your sleeve ofc.
Survival(ranged, new name perhaps?) - a rugged tracker that is aided by a loyal companion. His/her main focus is the enhancement of ammunition/arrows. To make it/them as deadly as possible. You know that even if the enemy escapes temporarily, it will not get very far.
Back to the initial subject…we have seen a 4th spec addition once before. This was when the Druid class saw Feral being split into Guardian/Feral Combat.
So that you had 1 spec focusing on the Bearform while the other focused on the Catform and what each meant thematically.
Imagine if at the time, the decision was made to scrap either one of them instead of keeping both? Imagine what those who loved either would’ve thought?
The bottom line is, can the DoT-style for a hunter spec have it’s own Identity? Can it be unique, enough to warrant implementation? I think it can!
Now, for your own suggestions. Yeah, I can see, sort of, a way for this to work out as well. For us to get it through talents within the MM spec. I posted my own suggestions for it a while back: We Miss Old Survival hunter and Why it should be back - #69 by Briz-zenedar
I’ve since chosen to not push for that approach for a few reasons.
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I think there’s a sizeable pool of players that want MM to be what it currently is. They might not like having certain talents altered in favor of what we would want instead. They want the focus of MM to be on large hits as well as burst damage.
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I also think that, despite getting the very core of what the old Survival playstyle was about. It wouldn’t do it justice. It, if you ask me, deserves to be in the form of it’s own separate spec. Not a sub-spec you get through a few talent choices. Because there’s only so much you could do with that.
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The current base model design of MM wouldn’t work well together with abilities and effects coming from the old RSV spec.
You and me both mate, you and me both(…and hopefully a few others as well).
I’ve heard extreme differences in opinions towards the class for quite a while. Some love BM, some MM, some Survival. While others hate them all. The thing here is, we are all very different, we all have our preferences.
There will always be those that hate aspects of each spec. And vice versa. Which is also the main reason as to why I’m pushing for the return of that past DoT-playstyle/Survival spec to in the form of it’s own spec. So it wouldn’t affect the existing ones. Along with, as I’ve said before, the fact that it can bring it’s own identity. It can be different enough compared to the other specs(not just hunter specs).
The general feedback I’ve gotten on my suggestion for a design(across multiple platforms/forums), is that they like it. The only real negative feedback have been focused on the talents that involve your pet in any way. Based on that feedback, I’ve altered several of those talents to be less focused on the involvement of your pet and what you tell it to do. It’s now more focused on how your pet can help/empower you as the hunter.
Ofc some players don’t want to be forced to focus on their pet at all really. Which is why my design only involves pet management through optional talent choices rather than having anything there baseline.
Why?
Well…
Beast Mastery - is all about the pet(s).
Melee Survival - is a bit of a mix. It does have part of it’s core/baseline abilities that involve the pet.
Marksmanship - does not promote pet use in any way.
So adding in some middle ground for this proposed spec, I think is justified. With this design, you have nothing there baseline that involves pet management. But you can so choose if you want to, to further include elements of that playstyle. Which also happens to be closer to what the original core fantasy of the Hunter class was about. Again, we all have our opinions.
The spec that is perfect for everyone, does not exist. Nor will it ever do so.
2 Likes
Can’t wait for the day for the Black Arrow/Explosive arrow TNT build to return. Also this is thé time to let them hear us as they admitted some classes need to be looked at design wise!
#bringbackMoPspecdesign
8 Likes
Idd!
It’s the only thing we can do! Keep pushing for what we want while hoping that they don’t just hear us but also that they listen to us. That the feedback is taken in.
More and more of those that keep posting in favor for the past DoT-survival spec to return are moving away from the back and forth arguments we’ve had for so long, that they need to revert the current melee survival to bring back the old version.
It’s not like the demand for the return of this spec is getting lower. Quite the opposite. Hope that gets through.
We all have our preferences as to what version of a spec we want to see return. If you ask me I would say that it’s better to try to find a version of the spec that is suitable for the current game and the current design philosophy.
The last time we saw this spec in the game, the base design of specs was very different from today. This is ofc just how I see it.
Having said that, are there any particular aspects of the spec you would want to see return to the game? Specific talents? Passive effects? Etc.
Personally, I did not play a lot during MoP, I did bring some aspects of effects/abilities that we saw within the spec during this expansion, such as the focus regen from Serpent Sting(through the Death Adder talent). Trap Mastery(CD reductions). As well as a version of the Improved Serpent Sting passive.
I’m thinking about adding another effect to the Enhanced Traps passive in my design.
That passive effect is: giving either some, or giving all of your traps, a larger trigger radius(about 30-50% larger). Mostly I’m thinking about adding that to the suggested Immolation Trap, to make it easier to manage it in combat.
Looking at the talents specifically from MoP, I’m not really finding anything particularly fun.
Edit: not finding anything that really speaks to the fantasy of the DoT-spec
A lot of them are essentially versions of current BM abilities or talents that are in the game atm.
The level 90 row I would say fit’s better with either Marksmanship or perhaps one talent for melee survival.
Like I said, we all have our preferences. And if you look at the talent compilation back then, they wouldn’t really fit that well with the overall talent design philosophy today, for specs.
One example that comes to mind is A Murder of Crows. Something that I’ve always thought of to have a strong connection to BM. Why both MM as well as melee Survival has it on live, I cannot say. It makes no sense to me.
Now, my design suggestion does contain a ranged Survival equivalent to A Murder of Crows and it’s design. That is -Immolation Trap-, with some twists to it ofc, including the fact that it’s a baseline ability you can choose to enhance through talents. If you so desire.
1 Like
Man, i’m all up for bringing old SV as a 4th spec. Let the boyz playing current SV have their fun, there is no need to get rid of something that many people enjoy. But at the same time let me enjoy the playstyle I loved for so many years before Legion. The change effectively made me reroll in Legion because none of other Hunter specs felt the same to me and today i decided that i will do my best to support any movement to get the old SV back.
Lock’n’load boyz!
7 Likes
Speak for yourself. SV is one of the most fun specs to play in the game these days.
3 Likes
Which is a sad state of affairs if you think about it. The spec is still all over the place thematically what with a melee spec only having two real melee abilities.
2 Likes
Edit: Briz here, dno why my character was changed…
I would agree, thematically, I’d say it would be better if changes were made so that current survival was actually more of a melee spec than it is atm.
Just my opinion ofc.
My point really is, most people who say that they hate/don’t like the current melee survival while referring to the DoT-spec we had prior. They do so because they did not like that it was taken away from us. If we could have them both as separate specs, there wouldn’t really be an issue.
Edit:
Quite a few changes have been made since you posted this Crazy. Hopefully you still agree^^
Some of it has been clarifications on how things would work. But also some edits on the talents that involve your pet in any way. And more…
Most notably the previous level 90 talent "The Beast Within". The one that now has the name "Intoxication".
Previously it was based on your pet’s Dire Frenzy-attacks to proc the effect. It later was changed to include Basic Attacks as well.
In the end I decided to change it to involve a bit of RNG with your ranged auto attacks + a guaranteed proc based on your Black Arrow expiring from a target.
Fighting multiple targets(if you apply Black Arrow to several targets) such as during Rapid Fire etc. Then it will be even more effective.
I also decided to remove Steady Shot as the baseline focus builder. Now we only have Cobra Shot. Which also let me bring in/back a new talent design with "Spitting Cobra - Level 90".
I also want to provide some additional thoughts on why the design is as it is.
Anyone who played the old SV spec will notice a lot of similarities in my proposed design, taken from several past expansions.
Despite it being updated to fit with todays design philosophies.
-The Core Abilities are based mostly on what we had prior to Legion(going back to WotLK). But again, with some twists to them.
-The Major CD, Rapid Fire is very different from the old version.
I wanted it to be something that really spoke to the theme of the spec. Whilst allowing for positive mechanical effects that aren’t just base damage increases, but still, will result in a higher output.
-As for Mastery bonus effects, I’ve provided two different ones. The first one, I like the most, it has the potential to affect your gameplay. Not on a groundbreaking level, but still…
It also has a passive execute-effect added to it. Which for certain areas of the game has a lot of potential. Especially as you gain more mastery.
The second Mastery effect is essentially the old one we had in the past. More passive damage…
Just gave it a new name, that IMO, fits the fantasy of the spec.
-Passive Effects!
Lock & Load ofc.
It, if you ask me, was so synonymous with the spec that I had to make it a baseline effect. Sure, it’s not as impactful as it was prior to Legion. But the baseline changes to Explosive Shot, IMO makes up for it, and allows for more player oriented choices overall.
The improvements to traps, again, is very closely tied to what Survival was back then. The specific effects I included, are based on the theme/fantasy. Also with the hope of bringing something new to the spec(and class).
_I can think of several ways you can add extra effects to the Enhanced Freezing Trap in order to make it useful for helping allies.
As in, you can decide to use it to protect an ally from an incoming attack(as long as the trap is between the player and the threat that is). Or you can build in a slow effect that triggers if someone in close range to the trap, breaks it._
I believe that Steady Focus(the name mostly), isn’t only synonymous with MM. I would say that, despite the fact that Cobra Shot nowadays is an instant cast instead of having a cast time, if you spend more time on focus generation, it should be even more rewarding.
Serpent Spread, I loved it, it helps a lot with AoE. Strong ties to the past SV spec.
The passive “Exotic Munitions”, I chose to include from WoD(the name at least). I liked the theme, it fits the spec. The actual design is very different from the old one in WoD. It’s just a fun, theme-accurate passive effect that has the potential to help you with DoT-management. Especially on multiple targets.
And, it allowed me to do some fun stuff with the talents later on. ![:slight_smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
-As for Talents, there is a lot you can talk about but…
I have said this before. I believe that with the talent design we have today, the talents themselves should focus on enhancing the playstyle and the theme of your current spec.
If you check the talents section you will notice that I haven’t included a lot of choices to add in extra abilities. I’m not a big fan of niched stand-alone abilities that don’t really do anything with the core of the spec.
Also, with my design, this spec would have more baseline offensive damaging abilities than any of the other hunter specs currently has. So, the need to add in more through talents, isn’t as high.
Anything that involves your pet, I decided to put in as talent options and not have them there baseline. I believe BM should be the spec for that.
At the same time, I believe that only MM should be the ranger spec. Why?
The core fantasy of the CLASS, is "Ranged combat with a weapon, while aided by a loyal companion". I believe that this should still be the case.
The passive effect focusing on your Freezing Trap(Enhanced Traps passive), along with the last tier talent Resourcefulness, can at times be very useful. Not all the time ofc but at least it let’s you choose how you want to benefit from the trap.
It’s a good way to give the hunter class some extra utility that very much fits the fantasy. Might not be optimal for all parts of the game but, that’s what we have to deal with in a lot of cases.
Note that it’s not an immunity, but a directional effect. And with good gameplay from opposing players(as an example), it can be dealt with fairly easily.
Edit:
Added in something for the passive effect Lock and Load. To make it more fluid no matter the level of RNG.
Edit: Getting a proc from Lock & Load, won’t affect the base re-charge system of Explosive Shot. Example: If you have 2 charges of Explosive Shot available and you get a L&L-proc, you will then have 3 charges. 1 of which costs no Focus. Keep in mind that L&L has a limited duration.
When the buff expires, so does any extra charge that you haven’t yet used.
3 Likes
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