The time has come to retire the phrase FOTM

PVP Arenas
21

The best approach to PvP would be to not change much at all, but that would require a good balance to begin with. That is not the case in current WoW.

Why would I be careful with assuming players want to play their favorite character and be able to perform well with it? That makes no sense at all.

The players’ expectations differ between seasons/patches/expansions depending on Blizzard’s design and new system implementations etc between seasons/patches/expansions.

If there is lack of balance between specs, players usually want buffs/nerfs to specs during on-going season.

If there is fundamental flaws in a spec design, players usually want changes to the spec design between patches.

Yes, there are some players who are happy to “fotm reroll” to take advantage of the overtuned specs to get achievements more easily.
Is it healthy that the game is designed like that though? Not really.

In WoW, you commit to a class/spec. You level it up. You gear it. You clear content with it. You get achievements with it. You get titles with it. You get mounts with it.
Of course most players would rather be able to perform at the top with their favorite class/spec rather than having to reroll temporarily.

Do you watch streams of top players? They’re constantly frustrated because of this. They’re also constantly frustrated about the RNG upon RNG that is forced into PvP currently. It’s bad design through and through.

PvE players are also frustrated on these forums because of the lack of diversity when it comes to specs in m+ etc. That frustration has been the case ever since m+ was a thing you know.

22

Because favorite character is for some the character that is most powerful.
It’s fun to be overpowered, to some.
Hence FOTM.

For example, when Call of Duty came out the shotgun was completely overpowered – a cause of frustration to many players.
….But also a cause of enjoyment to some players who just think it’s fun to run around and be completely overpowered.

Last Season of WoD had an interesting paradox where some players requested balance changes on the forums, not because the Season was perceived as overly in need of balance changes, but because playing the status quo for too many months was boring. Change for the sake of change is fun, to some.

Again, I’d be careful with speaking for others. And again, as far as my question is concerned, I’d rather hear from others what they think, as opposed to having you tell me what you think they think. No offence. :slight_smile:

Based on what I’m reading here on the forums, I’d say it’s more nuanced than such.
I mean, when players request easy catch-ups, being able to gear up quickly, not having to grind, and so on, then that speaks more toward a desire for being able to choose freely among any character you want to play, and then just play it – as opposed to being devoted to the same character all the time.

I mean, between a Season like the current where you’re very much locked into a main character that you’ve done all your grinding on, and then previous Seasons that were a lot more alt-friendly, I wouldn’t say everyone’s in favor of having to commit to one class or spec.

Top streamers have a bit of a class-brand though, so I’m not sure if they’re a good example to use.
I mean, if someone asks how to get better at playing a particular class or spec, they’re often referred to go watch a stream by a certain top player who’s known for playing that class.
So the streamers obviously have an interest in building their identity around a particular class, because that attracts viewers. And so they also have an interest in those classes remaining relevant and viable.
Cdew for Shaman. Snutz for Rogue. Hydra for Priest. Etc…

For sure. Again, I’m not passing judgement and you don’t have to try and convince me. I’m fairly distanced from all this personally.
The OP just happened to infer that lots of changes all the time is good times. And I’m merely curious as to why someone thinks that, or thinks otherwise. But I’ll leave out the PvE discussion since it’s less relevant to the people who post here. :slight_smile:

23

Must be hard to type a post without insulting someone/something.

24

God forbid the fools that try to communicate with Jito.

25

But this is literally the case with a specific rogue that has 6x gushing wounds and is now 2.4cr without having ever reached that before.

26

Keyword: to some. Do you really think there are many players that prefer to play FOTM rather than being able to perform as well with their main?

Giving such examples is not a good idea. In said game you can easily just switch to that weapon. In WoW you need to level a new class, gear, get essences, get PvE stuff etc etc. Also your accomplishments in this game is tied to your character (gladiator mounts, titles etc).

Yes, because people also like to play alts. People don’t like to be stuck for a whole patch playing only one spec. That’s why players want catch-up. That’s also why players want BALANCE. To be able to play whatever they want and perform well because of skill, rather than tuning or gear. Not just play the FOTM spec/comp.
Players want to push with their main, and play chill on alts (and some even push).

Players have a connection to their main though. Achievements, mounts and titles are connected to their mains if they’ve commited to it (which many have).

Players rather play their main spec if it performs well than rerolling and maining another spec temporarily because their main spec is useless in arena.
Players play alts of course, but that is on the side of playing their main if they actually can play their main in a comp.

I play alts too while I play my main, that doesn’t mean at all that I prefer playing my alt.

But the frustration is also on these forums. Class forums, dungeons & raids forums, mmo-champion forums etc. The frustration is also from top m+ players.
Top players who compete in Blizzcon (both arena and m+) are frustrated at the poor balancing, poor diversity and the stupid current design of many specs.

What is a good example to use in your opinion then?
The silent masses?

You already know what people think here. Arena players want balance. They want the game to be fair. They want to play what they want to play and perform well with it. It’s not that hard to figure out.

Again;

  • Arena players want a balance approach that LEADS to emphazing the player’s own capabilities.

  • The best approach to PvP would be to not change much at all, but that would require a good balance to begin with. That is not the case in current WoW.

If they balance classes/specs well in PvP, players would then prefer not touching the balance during a season.

27

Again, Corruption and RNG is kind of a seperate topic, so forgive me for glossing over it. :slight_smile:

Again, I am asking out of curiosity, so I want to hear what other people think and why they think the way they do. Not what you think they think. No offense. I’ve heard what you think personally, and it was insightful, and thank you for that. But I’m not looking for an omniscient reply here - just the individual’s. :slight_smile:

28

Wow that is mean xD

29

The transfer window usually goes into the season, at least in football. Not sure how other sports handle it, but I would guess its pretty much the same.

I dont think thats necessarily a must have. Its more that we want constantly balance patches upon a point where meta doesnt exist anymore because everything is as good. Sure, thats practically impossible, never the less they should at least try so everything becomes top tier viablish.

Facing the same comp over and over again is pretty much unfun. If you play on higher mmrs, probably even on lower mmrs, 8/10 games include a destro or mage, the other 2/10 a dh or dk. And thats the case for what, 15 month now? Very frustrating, very unfun!

30

It was an example to illustrate a point! Too much nit-picking. :joy:

The point simply being that in many forms of competition you have a period prior to the start of the competition where changes are allowed. Then once the competition starts, then no further changes are allowed, because you want to ensure that the competition itself isn’t disrupted by external factors.

If my soccer example isn’t too precise (admittedly I don’t watch much soccer), then replace it with NFL or NBA or NHL or whatever. In terms of gaming I think I used OWL as an example of it as well.

But hopefully the point comes across that you can either have on-going balance changes during the PvP Season – which means that your progress and success is as much decided by your own skill and capabilities as it’s decided by Blizzard’s intervention – or you can have balance changes only prior to the start of the Season, which means that your progress and success is decided by your own skill and capabilities, and also your choice of class/spec/comp to play.

Which one is preferable depends on whether people like Blizzard interfering or not.

I don’t think Blizzard can do much about that really, unless they start really restricting people’s freedom to play other characters.
I mean, the more competitive the environment gets, the more urgent does it get to optimize in order to be successful.
So at the very top ratings the players are really skilled, they have amazing gear, play effective comps, and so on. And if you want to thrive in that environment, you naturally have to be competitive as well, which means matching the efforts of others.

That’s sort of how it is in all forms of competition. People will pick the best, because they’d be handicapping themselves otherwise, and that’s counter-productive to the goal of being the best!

That’s just the nature of a competitive environment, I think.

31

If an example doesnt fit, its not nit-picking, its just a bad example. :stuck_out_tongue: Your name is hopefully not Donald, so you dont call every news just fake news if you dislike them. :wink:

Thats the pre match beginning where you can change talents. But in football and any other sport, mostly talent is the deciding factor. Thats why they should change balance to a point where meta doesnt really exists anymore!

Btw: Its not called soccer anymore. We dont care about the weird guys across the ocean.

They can. If everything is viable, people will play what is the most fun for them. You dont think thats true? Even most destro player dislike the design of their class, they just have no other choice because affli & demo arent viable. So if they dont want to reroll and learn a new class, they have to play destro.

So what is it that they have to do? Remove meta as much as possible by bringing balance patches. They cant just copy their overwatch design (even tho they have a lot more balance patches there!) because we cant just change the classes before or even during a game. And its impossible to level and equip several chars with the forcement into PvE with maximum rng.

I can understand that the want to keep the addiction with forcement since we are talking about money. But they should at least try to keep the fun with nice class design and good balance. And no, if you can play the game with a tablet or gamepad, the class design is terrible!

32

Friends please… continue because forum drama is more fun than the game right now.

33

I think it fits. Ya’ll just like to scrutinize my words for gotcha!-moments, which is fine, but I think the communication gets across without real confusion. :slight_smile:

I don’t think that’s realistic. Players will always define a meta-game, because they will always seek to optimize. There’s always an exchange of information by players and a conclusion in regards to what’s good and what’s not. And players will always gravitate toward that which is perceived as good. Hence FOTM.

Since I’m the enfant terrible around here, I’ll make a greater point out of referring to it as soccer henceforth. Just because. :smiling_imp:

I do think that’s true, I just don’t think it’s realistic.
I mean, across 29 Arena Seasons over the past 13 years there’s always been a defined meta-game. Even the best and most balanced Seasons have had a meta-game.

Viable and competitive are also different in meaning, I think.

From Blizzard’s perspective, the goal is probably to ensure that everything is viable up to 2400 rating and Gladiator, because that’s where the top reward is placed.
That’s the same for Mythic+ Dungeons and Mythic raid difficulty. The goal is that all 36 specs should be able to do a +15 key in time and kill Mythic N’zoth. That’s Blizzard’s balance point to strive for.
Beyond that lies the competitive scene. If you do keys beyond +15 or you’re participating in the World First or Realm First race or whatever, then you’re being competitive. And Blizzard aren’t really balancing around that environment. It’s really an “Enter at your own peril”-environment.

And I think it’s the same in Arena. I know Ghostcrawler said in WotLK that Blizzard’s immediate goal was to ensure that every class had at least one viable spec for Arena, i.e. one spec that could compete for the titles. And then the long-term goal was that every class should have multiple specs that were viable for Arena.
And if you look at it today, then all classes have at least one spec that can reach Gladiator with some comp.
The goal beyond that is probably to ensure that even more specs have a viable path to Gladiator.
But what exists beyond Gladiator is the pure competitive environment, and I don’t think Blizzard aims for perfect balance there. It’s not feasible, since players will always optimize and min/max and take everything to an extreme anyway. That’s the same in PvE where the top guilds have dozens of alts and do split raids and stack classes and specs to a point of insanity.
Blizzard can’t really control that environment, and they’ve never really tried. It’s just competition in its raw, undisturbed form. Enter at your own peril, right?

34

I wonder where is whisperer :confused: him vs jito would be a perfect duel :pensive:

35

As Ive said, its obviously impossible to get 100% balance but that doesnt mean they should stop trying. We had in the past class balance that went into the right direction. Take MoP last season, everything was viable, everything felt really strong and everything was probably kinda broken. We still had a meta, L.S.D was for example the strongest comp ingame, godcomp was also insanely strong. Never the less, everything, literally everything was r1 viable.

Something similar in WoD last season. We obviously had tier differences and a meta in form of RMD and turbo, but if I remember correctly then ever single spec had a r1 viable comp.

If they were able to achieve it in the past, they are able to achieve it in the future. Blizz is getting it wrong when they think we want a changing meta like we have in overwatch every few weeks, what we want is a balance system where meta isnt that important, because everything is somewhat viable.

What we also want is active and fun & skill based classdesign. Make everything broken and your class will feel fun and super strong. So people will still complain and there will be still things we should complain about, but a few issues less on the list and fun gameplay because we fall in love with our characters again.

Not really, if everything is viable, competitive and meta are only words that matter at the top 100 of the ladder. But therefor we also need skill based class design.

36

I agree. My curiosity again, is merely whether the manner by which they should try is:

A) Frontload all the changes prior to the start of a Season.

or

B) Make changes intermittently throughout the on-going Season.

The competitive environment will obviously differ depending on what you do.

Option A gives players security and comfort in knowing that what they decide to play and practice will not be disrupted by Blizzard during the Season.

Option B gives players the hope that Blizzard may intervene and regulate the class balance, if it has turned out unfavorable during the Season.

Option A is what we tend to see in the final Seasons of an expansion. The Seasons are very long and Blizzard don’t really do many changes, so the meta-game gets to evolve on its own and players get to really practice and perfect their strategies.

Option B is more prevalent early in an expansion where the hotfixes are rolling out on an almost weekly basis. Specs basically take turns to shine and enjoy moments of overpoweredness before they get adjusted. One day you’re looking at Frost Death Knights being overpowered and Warlocks being crap. And not much later the Warlocks are unstoppable Gods and the Frost Death Knights are yesterday’s news.

Those two environments present different gameplay experiences – regardless of the quality of balance Blizzard ends up with – so my personal curiosity is to learn which one people prefer, and why they prefer it.

It’s easy to say that Blizzard should just try to balance the game. But the interesting part is how.

And again, if it’s in reply to me I’d much rather hear what you want, not what you think everyone wants, or the community wants, or what’s best for the playerbase or whatever.
Just your own selfish and egoistic desires in a little neat post, that’s all. :slight_smile:

37

Obviously this one. Figure out what are the issues and try to fix them. Other issues will come automatically so continue with them, etc. In the end they wont have perfect balance but if they continue to fix things, they will at least get something thats getting close to it.

More important tho are fun class designs and skill impact!!! Its not fun if you press one button and its doing 10 different useful things for you. Only noobs enjoy stuff like that, thats why those are playing DH, but its destroying the skill overall. So its another root of all evil!

Wrong point of view. If they would pick B) no class would become bad, maybe just not broken meta anymore as it maybe is at the season opening. But thats exactly what we want overall. Everything is viable? Nothing is really meta, only at the very top of the ladder!

But again: Therefor the first step they have to do is to bring back skill based class design. More buttons to press on purpose instead of passive talents like auto bubble or combining difference things automatically into one spell like Blade Dance thats dealing damage on low cd, dodging everything and also heals you up thanks to passive life leech.

Armor is also another point of all evil and should therefore be removed in PvP. Armor is one reason why its nearly impossible to balance Windwalker and similar classes that are mostly dealing armor related damage. If they deal serious damage to Resto Shamans / Holy Paladins, they do too much damage to mages, shadows, etc. If they tune down the damage to a normal level for mages, its impossible for them to ever kill a Resto Shaman. That noone at Blizz is understanding that, is just dumb to be honest.

38

Okay.

What do you think about the in-between time, i.e. before we get to “the end” of Blizzard’s balance efforts?

Take a spec like Discipline Priest in Season 2.
A while into the Season Blizzard made a change that reduced the mana regeneration of healers by ~50%.
That change affected Discipline Priests disproportionally hard.
So obviously, a player who had climbed the ladder on his Discipline Priest before the change was implemented had a rating advantage over other Discipline Priests who hadn’t climbed the ladder by the time the change was made.

So all players don’t get to compete on the same terms when nerfs and buffs are thrown out at random times. You stand to gain the most rating if you capitalize on the time periods where your spec is thriving or overpowered.

Is that ideal in a competitive environment?

39

Indeed, but blizz was smart enough to implement a rating inflation a few years ago so people cant just push at the beginning of a season where something is might be overpowered and keep this rating till the end of the season. Its not that important anymore, since most titles are given out by ratings now but if you would play arena for yourself, you would know that rating at the season beginning are usually a lot harder to achieve. 2.4k for instance was top 20 in the first few weeks and now it dropped to 650 or something and the top 20 is now ~2.9k.

Which means the advantages wont be that big and even when it might be frustrating, if they know that things are changing and getting into the right direction with each patch, they are a lot more happy than being not viable for a whole season or even more worse: for a whole expansion.

Ideal? No. But is it ideal to make 3-4 classes exceptional strong and keep it this way for the whole xpac? I guess not, which is also one major reason why so many PvPers just quit after the first season. No fun class design, no skill based gameplay, PvE forcement, RNG on its maximum and the same fxxx meta for the whole xpac! No PvP player wants to see that!

40

Well it’s all preference I suppose.

Again, little devil’s advocate, but the current environment where Demon Hunters are overpowered presents equal opportunity. Everyone can play Demon Hunter and everyone who does gets to play the same overpowered version of it. So all the players who play Demon Hunter are comparable to each other and the player with the highest ranking or rating is obviously the most accomplished.
When Blizzard don’t make changes during the on-going Season, then players can compare and evaluate each other, because the terms they play on are equal.

When Blizzard makes constant changes, then it gets difficult to evaluate what’s caused by personal accomplishment and what’s caused by Blizzard’s buffs or nerfs. Do I attribute my increased win-rate to my own skill or is it due to Blizzard buffing my spec?

What’s fun and what’s competitive is, I guess, a matter of preference. But thanks for sharing yours. :hugs: