the problem is the narrative is still very much cloak and dagger in terms of the jailor/sylvanas goal, atleast with every expac up to legion the motives off the villain were somewhat clear
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Koromor is spot on… no wonder the game feels pointless.
I’m rescuing a selection of the most overhyped Azerothian characters from god knows where and god knows who for god knows what ever reason.
We don’t know who the bad guy is, Sylvanas is so shy who cares what she’s doing, what’s the point? Save your favourite faction leader… it’s like they are begging us to care for one of them. Please. Show us some curtesy and even try to write a plot point let alone a hook ffs.
They took a random selection of carrots from a few racial sticks, stuck them where the sun doesn’t shine and said fetch… but then when we were good dogs and fetched, they took the brown carrots away and hid them again, and again and … who cares!!!
I certainly don’t.
Can’t wait til this expansion is over.
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“Contained in a vacuum”
This is probably the most apt description for the pile of novice writing we do have in the game right now, going on for since I do not know how long.
During Vanilla, every time I explored an area, I was feeling immensely connected with the “Warcraft” universe. Each zone had it’s own panage, but overall they made a very good “Universe”.
Even in BfA, I still had this feeling due to Zandalari, Proudmoore Admirality, so on so forth.
But, this expansion is just an insult to the players/readers intelligence.
I don’t even know where to begin with. Undead Plague that was mastered by Ner’zhul because he was captivated on top of Icecrown; is actually a plague invented by Maldraxxus??
Kel’thuzad, which was an ambitious Mage that was deported from Kirin’Tor, traveled to Northrend, became a powerful agent of Ner’zhul; actually in cooperation with I don’t know what the hell faction from Shadowlands?
The Undead Scourge, including Nerubian, which in lore was point to point precisely crafted by Metzen, actually a faction from Shadowlands?!
Nathrezim, Dreadlords that were CLEARLY STATED THAT THEY ARE FROM OTHER PARTS OF TWISTING NETHER; actually a faction from Revendreth?!?!
I can go on and on. Not only that this demolishes what was laid carefully before, it is clearly the ultimate pile of crap I have ever seen from this company. And I’ve seen some bullcrap from Blizzard.
Let this game die. Don’t let corporate “outsourcers” to use “generic writing techniques” to “retroactively continue” a Scourge theme to keep players further.
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I wish that was the case, but it is not.
Shadowlands is different from say Warlords of Draenor and its alternate timeline, which we could wrap neatly up in a box and stove away; never to be mentioned again.
But the Shadowlands is about the afterlife, a pivotal and fundamental aspect of the Warcraft lore universe. The afterlife is not something you can ever ignore as it’ll remain relevant for as long as there is death in World of Warcraft. Which means it’ll basically be extremely relevant for any foreseeable future, ignoring major retcons. Death, religion and the afterlife play a central role in shaping societies on Azeroth. Knowledge about the Shadowlands will affect every culture and race on Azeroth on a fundamental level, as where you go once you die is a pretty big deal.
By having the afterlife be the setting for Shadowlands, Blizzard has opened Pandora’s box. It can not be closed again without massive lore retcons.
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"Oh good, you are awake! You hit your head pretty hard there!
Hmm? What are you talking about? Afterlives? Covenants? The Jailer? Snap out of it, champion! It was just a dream!"
Unfortunately, that is the length they would have to go to. That it was all a fever dream by the champion after accidentally whiffing a bit too much Azerite ; p
I did not experince all the parts you’ve mentioned in the post, but a couple comments.
I would say that the previous expansion was. Because it started on the horde side with Saurfang agreeing to start a war which is a direct contradiction to himself from War Crimes, and on the alliance side with absence of draenei who are a race that would rather be extinct than abandon their “duty” when it comes to the alliance. So, even to start the whole thing there needed to be things on the edge of “out of character”. And it was the high point of “war campaign”.
On the contrary, Shadowlands seems like an honest (more or less) attempt of the current team, which largely likely do not have most people of the past, to present their vision of the story. Which IMO, if they “retire” old characters, could actually lead to something decent. Their imitation of what was good made by the former devs is… meh. So I do not mind the new team telling new stories and leave the old things behind. I did not see much good from them trying to mess with those. Let the well made old things stay as they are.
About nerubians all we really have is Danuser’s “death was present on Azeroth before the scourge” and “we might eventually learn what inspired nerubians”. Does not seem like too bad approach to me.
We do not have a confirmation of what they are. Only some hints. But hints are not confirmations.
Well, if you don’t like it, I believe you have reasons for it. Maybe we could discuss some specific things later if you’ll have interest in sharing more details.
To me, the worst pile is described in one of the most depressing forum threads I’ve seen.
No worries. A couple BfA s more, and that will happen.
gl hf
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Holding out for they’ll reintroduce the Primus but honestly this is post-MoP Blizzard if it’s not about engagement metrics they really do not care about the story at all. Its all slapdash and tacked on with tape.
Yeah it’s a trend to see Alliance characters become just yet more neutrals with lofty goals. Horde on the other hand go through two genocidal fascist dictatorships and we’re supposed to be like “heh guys its just the Horde being the Horde, we have to work together?”
Yeah no.
I recently watched the WCIII - ROC - TFT “Movies” from end to end again. You know, where they capture in-game dialogues and videos in a uniform way.
Felt like every detail was crafted consciously. There was a passage where Arthas “brought the bones of Kel’thuzad” to ex-Lordaeron (after Undead Scourge wiped it out), to resurrect it.
At that point, one of the Acolytes in-game you control, tells Arthas:
“My lord, being of such power of Kel’thuzad needs starkly adept magic to re-animate” then they decide to get the bones to the Sunwell.
I mean, just this section reminded me, there was an ongoing “momentum” which I was a part of in-game.
Also trying to understand that, did it get worse in the recent 3 expansions, or am I being melodramathical and Metzen also did some retcons while building this lore?
Let me know if you are interested further discussing this in discord.
Cheers and regards,
Kierkegard
All these “Shadowlands feel like fanfic” issues could’ve been avoided if they actually have us an Azeroth-specific Shadowlands.
Think about it:
- We have the Emerald Dream which is specific to Azeroth. If we can have our own “prelife”, then why shouldn’t we have our own afterlife as well? Of course, the Emerald Dream has now been largely superseded by Ardenweald, so Blizzard themselves definitely couldn’t care less.
- It would immediately solve a lot of the time travel-related issues that SL (and specifically Danuser in his infamous interview) created. Die on our version of Azeroth = go to our Shadowlands. For context: Danuser said that every version of every living being is but a “thread” and their “true self” is incarnated in the Shadowlands. Of course, he doesn’t elaborate on what exactly this means in practice, nor does he address paradoxes such as the case of demon-turned beings, whose former mortal spirits lose their connection to the Shadowlands and who exist beyond space and time.
- Blizzard doesn’t seem to be sure whether they want Azeroth to be the star of the show or not. On occasions we get told that Azeroth is but a speck in the Great Dark beyond, that even the Burning Crusade is but another chapter in the great history of the cosmos. On other occasions we’re told that somehow the blood elves were the first to create a mana bomb, that somehow no other civilization was ever advanced or smart enough to create this. Somehow Azeroth still manages to be the star of the show (see Maldraxxus especially…). This inconsistency is quite damaging to the story and immersion IMO, but wouldn’t be a problem if it was set in an Azeroth-specific afterlife in the first place.
- I personally don’t think Blizzard made good use of the almost limitless freedom they had in Shadowlands. Ardenweald’s just another night elf zone, Maldraxxus’s a Scourge zone, Revendreth’s 100% gothic horror and Bastion’s just a pretty conventional afterlife overall (minus the brainwashing). Point being that I don’t think things would have been necessarily less creative by simply making shadowy “death” versions of zones on Azeroth. Heck, they could even take original Kalimdor as a basis and go from there, ask “what would this place have looked like originally, and what would it look like on a “dead” Azeroth?”. It’s not like the possibilities on this path aren’t endless.
TLDR: blizz sux lol
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I do not think it’s a good idea to put Shadowlands with any other expansion, because up until this moment the game presented gameplay elements or whatever the devs thought was cool, and other media was used to explain how or why this is happening. Shadowlands is the first one ever where the devs decided to pull all relevant story bits into the game itself. We’ll have to wait till we find out how it works. So far - not bad IMO.
Metzen was in the company during TBC. And he was on the stage when we got the answer that Illidan is dead. And he still had influence when the story took a turn of “Illidan actually is not quite dead”.
Sometimes creators outgrow their creation. Warcraft was built upon much different things. But eventually devs wanted to replace those ways with “cool” characters and “hype” moments. So instead of gradual explore of different races, flawed and all, but still, that we had in Classic, and to a degree in TBC, we got Varian and the focus switched on Hollywood imitaion rails.
When the creator wants something different, is it a good idea to alter the original creation to one’s whim, or to leave it be and make a new things to accomodate new ideas? I don’t know. Both approaches can be successful, or lead to a failure.
We can discuss story related things here IMO, on the story forum. In discord I mostly sit in Accolonn’s one. Maybe check his streams to see if that’s interesting for you.
gl hf
IMO there are people who just like the process of complaining, so instead we would see complains, but different ones.
I don’t know, in Chronicles Sargeras said that he saw dreams of titans before. And that Emerald Dream maybe existed before the Pantheon got to Azeroth.
Well, it’s not quite Shadowlands story. Even in Cataclysm there we encounter Murozond, there is this idea of “rearranging” the time to avoid something supposedly catastrophic.
IMO the struggle with the idea of how to continue the story once Azeroth awakens. So the story goes back and forth instead.
To be honest, that is a rather accurate depiction of “irl” Helheim
aka “not too different”.
IMO we’ll see. This expansion starts decently. But so did Cata, and it is known how well it ended. Will Shadowlands go to disappointment, or will it be the beginning of a new chapter in WoW?
gl hf
Very, very, very, very, very debatable…
Well, I am not claiming to be objective. And a no-brainer beginning of the WotlK killed the guild I was in (after Black Temple / Sunwell content people just lost motivation). So more intence, although flawed, beginning of Cata was the time when I had the most fun in WoW. Shadowlands is rather enjoyable so far, although I am in the “absolutely casual” camp for now.
gl hf
Oh, sure, I liked to play during Cata. But I actually still liked it when it ended.
But the story? Whole zone questlines created as pop culture references, the faction war becoming ridiculous, and Deathwing just being a physical threat? Nah, I don’t see much in 4.0 that would have made me be optimistic on the story there.
But that’s not really specific to Cata, I guess, except Wrath and MoP I don’t think any addon’s first patch story looks halfway flattering in my hindsight…
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I feel one big reason why the Shadowlands feel so…outlandish is the fact that there are nearly no Azerothian races present in the Shadowlands, which in turn makes it feels so disconnected. Even in Legion when we invaded Argus, the homeworld of the Burning Legion, even if we started to jump around on different planets during the invasions, even if we walked through the depths of space and the nether…it all still felt familiar because there was always a familiar race in sight. There was always a draenei, there was always a blood/night elf demon hunter around the corner.
Although I am going to be honest here: I’m down for it mainly because after BfA I simply cannot stand either Alliance or Horde anymore and their endlessly boring conflicts.
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She’s still far from “even” with the Horde, really. In fact, the Horde so far has caused more damage to the Alliance than most of these “common enemies” we are always forced to team up with the Horde on.
But, well, this shouldn’t be about misery Olympics. It’s just such a shame that the writing doesn’t evolve organically, but is instead held hostage by the two faction system.
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Hey, blame the development of the last 15 years where the Horde could commit untold atrocities and get away with a slap on the wrist. That’s not a “Horde problem”; that’s a “Blizzard writing problem.”
I’m not bashing the Horde - I’m bashing the ineptitude of its storytellers. The Horde can’t wipe out the Alliance. The Alliance can’t smash the Horde. Not because they’d be evenly matched, but because if either of those outcomes happen, World of Warcraft is over.
I get why people view Shadowlands as an alien and detached expansion. It has nothing to do what we know as warcraft and Azeroth. It has good side with it though, first and foremost is to take us farther away from what we had in BFA, messed up story that had whole community railed up and displeased with how it mudded up already hazy waters story wise. To be honest its one of the ways to get away with the heavy damage BFA has done to the story.
The problem with Shadowlands is its writing again, it feels so uninspiring. The whole Maw prelude feels like written by some 14 year old or an expert troll. But I dont stress about that for now since SL can very much be a one way ticket expansion and everything buried in there.
As of covenants and oribos, surprisingly I find them more engaging and heavy with little bits of really cool lore, which again has nothing to do with Azerothian story. None of them feel too similar and the stories they offer are pretty decent. If the expansion manages to merge the two seperate themes togather well then I will consider it as a win.
Overall, despite its comical nature SL is still something I can keep myself busy with, with a small hope that we might get timeskip and there will be room for a fresh start.
Am not. Drop your victim complex.
Saurfang. The guy who committed genocide on a capital because his boss told him to do it. And then we spend I don’t know how long reading about how that made him sad, while the countless victim of genocide get zero screen time. Oh, and on top of that, he gets a hero’s burial for it. After deciding to get himself killed and having others fix the mess that he had a major part in causing.
I am outraged at how Blizzard ruined this once-honorable character.
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