Why is Fire considered to be the most skillful spec and why are Frost and Arcane players so looked down upon?

[Rondakungfu-stormscale]

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Heat of the rush. It happens to the best of us. Even skillfull players make mistakes.

Another silly excuse.
You mean Djay makes mistakes so he jumps repeatedly right before last boss PF pull? I dont think so.

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Jumping and doing 20k dps are 2 different things. The first one is an action that players adopted in order to eliminate any mistake to their rotation caused by the heat of the rush.

Its what i said above, your skillful CASTER spec has the ability to CAST while pressing jump button at the same time.

Maybe, i say maybe your “skillful” spec is not that skillful after all? Just sayin

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Same as above. It has to do with numbers.

Nope, its exactly the same thing. An overbuffed spec like this can make 10 mistakes and still outdps all the rest while having the ability to JUMP at the same time and being a caster.

@Edrinn-ragnaros

If you manage to even get close to my dps on ST i will give you all my gold from all my characters (thats over 260k).

You are 192 ilvl mage. Im pretty sure pretty much everyone can outdps you and not ment to be offensive towards you but sadly realistic.

@Edrinn-ragnaros

This is just toxic mentality.

The only toxic mentality here is mages being a must have since day 1 of this game by pressing their 3 buttons and jump like rabbits while they are considered casters who barely cast and even blink while casting.

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Seriously by your mentality i am 99% confident that you do not play your class/spec properly

My main is rondawhite-tarrenmill.
Im playing shadow in M+ and holy in raids when i was raiding. My holy logs from BFA are up, about 210 world in my spec and 3200 in M+.
I outdpsed several mages like you, over confident rerollers to the most op.

@Edrinn-ragnaros

you just proceed to do things like you always do and blame game mechanics or other classes for your insufficient skills.

Lets see:

You have 2 times curve in Helya and Nzoth.
I managed so far to get CE in Nzoth and achie while i have 9 curve achiev’s.
I dont consider i have much but still that is way, WAY better than yours. Dont get me started on Dungeons achievements, you have S4 achievement…

I have several good logs with this monk back in BFA and a few from legion, my priest holds some top tier logs as well. Rondawhite-TarrenMill

What makes you think i lack skills and i blame mechanics when you are an entitled spoiled spec that cant realize that when i was slowed in carapace mythic I WAS DEAD whilst you where blinking it or using your shining ice block?

Still i managed to kill it though, you did the LFR version of it?

[Laserbeam-dun-modr]

Agree on mage spoiled class

[Coldsháde-argent-dawn (Coldsháde)]

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

So you actually jump to not hardcast?
Cant you just NOT press that button you “high skill cap spec player” ?

During a combust rotation, you need to be fast at pressing your buttons and it’s not at all out of the question that the gcd would go off slightly before the travel time and lead to you hard-casting a pyro. I found that it’s mostly a thing that happens on high haste levels, and from what I’ve seen fire mage guides actually recommend you jump during combustion. The rotation being instant doesn’t mean it’s easy, by the way. It lessens the importance of proper positioning, but the burst itself is more complicated and messing it up will tank your dps down. Used to be the case even more in BfA with blaster master and all the prep you had to do when rune wasn’t self-cast, but it’s still a thing without those things too.

[Edrinn-ragnaros]

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

Another silly excuse.
You mean Djay makes mistakes so he jumps repeatedly right before last boss PF pull? I dont think so

Everybody makes mistakes. Choosing not to jump is just individual preference. Some people do, others dont. As i said… you dont HAVE to. What exactly did you not understand?

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

Its what i said above, your skillful CASTER spec has the ability to CAST while pressing jump button at the same time.

Maybe, i say maybe your “skillful” spec is not that skillful after all? Just sayin

Ok are you a troll? Pyroblast procs are instant, they are not a CAST. Phoenix Flames and Fireblast are instant too. Why are you even mention casting?? Do you know how an instant spells work?

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

Nope, its exactly the same thing. An overbuffed spec like this can make 10 mistakes and still outdps all the rest while having the ability to JUMP at the same time and being a caster.

Ok, at this point i can only assume you are just mad. Making many mistakes wont outdps any spec, unless the other dpsers are sleeping.

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

You are 192 ilvl mage. Im pretty sure pretty much everyone can outdps you and not ment to be offensive towards you but sadly realistic.

Arguably not. First of all i dont raid. Not now at least.
I only do mythics atm and other dpsers are usually arround my ilvl.
In single target fights yes i get outdpsed unless the other dpsers screw up tactics. In AoE fights i am usually toping dps. Overall i am always 1st or 2nd.

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

My main is rondawhite-tarrenmill.
Im playing shadow in M+ and holy in raids when i was raiding. My holy logs from BFA are up, about 210 world in my spec and 3200 in M+.
I outdpsed several mages like you, over confident rerollers to the most op

Irrelevant to what we are discussing here but congratulations nevertheless. we will never know if you would outdps me in BFA. Btw, i play Mage since TBC (started with Hunter in Vanilla). So i wouldnt consider myself a FOTM reroller actually.

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

Lets see:

You have 2 times curve in Helya and Nzoth.
I managed so far to get CE in Nzoth and achie while i have 9 curve achiev’s.
I dont consider i have much but still that is way, WAY better than yours. Dont get me started on Dungeons achievements, you have S4 achievement…

I have several good logs with this monk back in BFA and a few from legion, my priest holds some top tier logs as well. Rondawhite-TarrenMill

Again irrelevant…

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

What makes you think i lack skills and i blame mechanics when you are an entitled spoiled spec that cant realize that when i was slowed in carapace mythic I WAS DEAD whilst you where blinking it or using your shining ice block?

Still i managed to kill it though, you did the LFR version of it?

Because by your sayings you clearly are just mad because you are ranting about a spec that is not even the top dps on Raids nor M+. Fire mages are popular yes. But not the top dps currently. TBH in BFA season 4 Fire mages was more OP than they are now.

[Aerhaen-ravencrest]

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

Only below 30% mob HP. Other than that, you do actually need to hard-cast fireballs. Spamming scorch on a >30% HP target and saying you’re doing mobile dps is a little bit like spamming non-FoF ice lances or alternating fireblast/arcane barrage to achieve the same goal. In theory you dps while moving, but in practice not quite.

30% is still huge amount of boss HP, once you get there you become completely mobile because of Scorch and you still have your Fire Blast/Flames on top of that. Comparing Fire Blast to Arcane Barrage doesn’t really make sense cause Arcane can’t really cast Barrage nearly half as often as Fire does with FB since it consumes your Arcane Charges and will make you lose DPS.

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

A shaman friend of mine said that the combustion opener is one of the trickiest in the game back in Legion, and I’ve seen from experience that people who reroll fire tend to struggle with it at first when I teach them.

Yeah somebody completely new to the class and spec will always struggle with it’s mechanics, that doesn’t make Combustion rotation anything special compared to Frost or Arcane.

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

Rune of power exists. You have to be mindful of positioning and ongoing mechanics regardless, even if the fact that you can move around a little bit makes things easier. But, as an example, anything that makes you move further than the range of your rune takes away the 40% dmg modifier for the time you’re away. That is impactful and will hinder a novice fire mage if they time things wrong

You can’t really use Rune of Power as an argument for Fire requiring skill since all 3 Mage specs have access to it and currently all 3 use it in most of their builds. Rune of Power’s range is much bigger than the ground indicator meaning you can literally run around it in circles as Fire. If anything Fire is the least punished by Rune of Power since both Arcane and Frost need to hardcast much more and can’t really move even a little to the side of RoP to avoid some mechanic. Then again if Mage needs to completely leave his RoP, Fire is the one punished the least because even during combustion you can just manage with Scorch, Blast and Flames to still get your damage off while running away from a mechanic. Arcane and Frost are both much more screwed if something like this happens since they can’t afford to not hardcast.

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

It’s unfair to pretend the other two specs require 0 thought to play, but you cannot deny that frost specifically doesn’t have much to its rotation beyond the “press frostbolt for procs, use shiny buttons when they light up”.

I think it’s REALLY unfair to see people think that Frost is all about “pressing shiny buttons when they light up” cause literally every Mage spec does the same, every class relying on procs does. If anything I would say that it’s actually Fire which wants to use it’s “shiny button” every time it lights up. Most of the time you just want to cast instant Pyro whenever it’s possible where as Frost you sometimes will want to hold your procs since Fingers of Frost stacks up to 2 times and you generally don’t want to use Winter’s Chill if you have any stacks of Fingers of Frost active since you will just munch your own procs and lose a lot of dps. Since Frost can’t really Force it’s own procs like Fire can with Fire Blast, Scorch at low HP and Combustion, I think it actually needs to play more reactively than Fire since it relies on RNG. Trying to avoid proc munching at very high haste levels is not easy and I feel that Fire is actually more static with it’s gameplay than Frost.

[Coldsháde-argent-dawn (Coldsháde)]

@Aerhaen-ravencrest

Comparing Fire Blast to Arcane Barrage

I was comparing scorch to arcane barrage (you mentioned casting while moving and that’s the only way we can actually do so) and the damage will be comparable. Arcane loses its charges from spamming barrage, fire mage won’t ever get hot streaks and combustion cd reduces with scorch. Both options are not competitive dps while moving and I just wanted to show you that.

@Aerhaen-ravencrest

Most of the time you just want to cast instant Pyro whenever it’s possible

No. Ever heard of pyroblast fishing?

@Aerhaen-ravencrest

that doesn’t make Combustion rotation anything special compared to Frost or Arcane.

Icy veins is literally just “press the button and do your normal rotation with more haste”. You can be disadvantaged by rng, but rolling the dice well doesn’t make you a skilled player.

@Aerhaen-ravencrest

Since Frost can’t really Force it’s own procs like Fire can with Fire Blast, Scorch at low HP and Combustion, I think it actually needs to play more reactively than Fire

Knowing when to force your procs is part of the complexity, though. Let me know how good that combustion damage was when you use up all your fireblast charges 10 seconds before combustion is ready

You mentioned toxicity, yet you’re the one trying to say frost is as complex as the two other mage specs while also having absolutely no idea about how fire mage mechanics work, as it’s proven over and over again.

[Aerhaen-ravencrest]

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

was comparing scorch to arcane barrage (you mentioned casting while moving and that’s the only way we can actually do so) and the damage will be comparable. Arcane loses its charges from spamming barrage, fire mage won’t ever get hot streaks and combustion cd reduces with scorch. Both options are not competitive dps while moving and I just wanted to show you that.

What I meant is that Arcane LITERALLY loses dps by using Barrage and it’s all because of Arcane Charge mechanic. Sure fire won’t really get Hot Streaks with only Scorch spam but when compared to Arcane losing it’s charges, Fire doesn’t really lose anything by spamming Scorch. You don’t really gain DPS but you’re not punished later like Arcane by having to rebuild your charges again.

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

No. Ever heard of pyroblast fishing?

I heard and tell me how is it more complicated mechanically than anything Frost or Arcane does? At best it’s comparable to Frost having to prioritize which proc to use to not munch them.

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

Icy veins is literally just “press the button and do your normal rotation with more haste”. You can be disadvantaged by rng, but rolling the dice well doesn’t make you a skilled player.

I didn’t mean to make it sound like Icy veins or Arcane Power changes your rotation more than Combustion does. I just tried to say that people having to kinda memorize Combustion spell order (which like you said earlier is not always static but same can be said about either Arcane’s or Frost’s rotation, they’re not static either) doesn’t really make Fire this godly hard to play spec which I see many people claiming it is. And yeah rolling the dice on Frost doesn’t make you skilled player but adapting to the number of pips you rolled and maximizing your potential DPS does. Like I said avoiding proc munching at high haste levels is not as easy as it sounds.

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

Knowing when to force your procs is part of the complexity, though. Let me know how good that combustion damage was when you use up all your fireblast charges 10 seconds before combustion is ready

It works the same for every Mage spec, we all want to have our cooldowns up before the boss fight/huge pull starts. Just like Fire wants to save it’s Blast/Flames charges for Combustion, Arcane wants to save ToTM, Evocation and PoM for Arcane Power. Same can be said about Frost wanting to have Frozen Orb before some big pull.

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

You mentioned toxicity, yet you’re the one trying to say frost is as complex as the two other mage specs while also having absolutely no idea about how fire mage mechanics work, as it’s proven over and over again.

How does me saying that Frost is as complex as other two Mage specs make me toxic in any way? It’s just my opinion. I didn’t say that either Fire was easier than Frost or braindead I just said that it’s not as hard as many people claim it to be. I mentioned toxicity because from my own experience it’s usually Fire players that are toxic towards others, all while claiming that their spec is the most mechanically difficult thing in this game and making fun of people for trying to enjoy other specs. “HURR DURR FROSBOLT SPAM”, “BRR DUMB ARCANE BLAST 1 BUTTON ONLY SPEC”. It really needs to stop.

[Minnji-eonar]

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Actually frost spec is punnished by default because FoF and BF stacks overalps. So frost mages finds themselves 60% of the time using a FoF proc while they already have BF stacks on the target.
This is one of the many reasons why Frost spec is underperfoming in ST fights. They should make FoF to not consume stacks of BF and everything will be ok. Frost spec will be competitive in ST fights as well.

Thats not how balancing works. Also 60% is a gross exaggeration.

Also about jumping or strafing, it isn’t just for safety. Any little lag spike or PF travel time can make you hardcast, but if you stand there waiting for pf to hit for your proc you aren’t queuing your spells and therefore losing tiny amounts of time every PF. It’s not a lot but can be the difference between your last pyro hitting inside or outside of combust.

[Rondakungfu-stormscale]

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

I found that it’s mostly a thing that happens on high haste levels

High haste levels ? 20% is not that high enough and the focus here is that a caster is jumping and popping 22k ST burst dps. A caster.

For whatever the reason is, which i still think is the way melees going left and right… The focus is that THIS caster should be a caster for starters and not a jumping jack

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Why are you even mention casting??

Because mage is a caster spec?

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Do you know how an instant spells work?

WoW, that is something i never know… Tell me

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Ok, at this point i can only assume you are just mad.

Nope, im being realistic and from what i see in Warcraft logs, there is a big diff from mage/lock/balance with other specs. They are allowed more mistakes compared to weaker specs. Its logic IF you have an xp in the game anyways.

@Edrinn-ragnaros

In single target fights yes i get outdpsed unless the other dpsers screw up tactics. In AoE fights i am usually toping dps. Overall i am always 1st or 2nd.

Didnt you say before you rock ST dps?
Now you gone back to AoE?

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Irrelevant to what we are discussing here but congratulations nevertheless.

When you tell me “i dont know how to play” im just replying you with a few examples of why i know and my logs are there to prove im not a boosted one. You see anyone can buy a CE but you cant have gold and pink logs whilst boosted

@Edrinn-ragnaros

we will never know if you would outdps me in BFA.

I would for sure simply because i was running with 11/12M gear between pugs that barely had half raid progress + gear.

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Again irrelevant…

Not at all, explanation above.

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Because by your sayings you clearly are just mad because you are ranting about a spec that is not even the top dps on Raids nor M+.

Im not mad, trying to prove me as one with silly examples doesnt win you anything.

@Edrinn-ragnaros

Fire mages are popular yes.

The Fmage+Balance poppularity hurts all the rest specs, you realize that or you want a further explanation on why?

@Edrinn-ragnaros

But not the top dps currently.

If you think that fire is not the best dps, you should simply uninstall the game right now. Just sayin

@Edrinn-ragnaros

TBH in BFA season 4 Fire mages was more OP than they are now.

They are the same BS tier barely-casting caster spec that jumps around whilst they are 10x more broken in M+ because of the brightest of ideas blizzard had to nerf drums. So besides the best M+ spec in damage they are a must have because of their bloodlust utility.

Therefore, for me they are more broken than ever now since M+ is my whole concern because i dont raid since 2nd raid week.

[Marmaga-ragnaros]

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

Didnt you say before you rock ST dps?
Now you gone back to AoE?

Read again. I said i would do way more damage than you playing a “faceroll fire mage”. The reason is because you wont be able to pull those numbers you see other fire mages pulling.

Anyway i really dislike people flexing on the forums. You don’t understand how any of the 3 mage specs work and you will never do unless you actually play them.
So go play a fire mage. Pull 20k dps as you say. Be top dps in every raid and m+ and then come here to complain about fire mages being OP and Mages in general being a spoiled class

Untill then…

C ya.

[Rondakungfu-stormscale]

@Marmaga-ragnaros

Anyway i really dislike people flexing on the forums. You don’t understand how any of the 3 mage specs work and you will never do unless you actually play them.

Whilst you dont understand why your class is ultra privileged since you play only this.

@Marmaga-ragnaros

So go play a fire mage. Pull 20k dps as you say. Be top dps in every raid and m+ and then come here to complain about fire mages being OP and Mages in general being a spoiled class

If i was playing it i would be like you saying its hard to play and that its actually balanced or it used to be more OP and rest excuses.

Instead, go play a priest shadow/disc/holy and do the same encounters you do with your mage and actually survive them whilst being 1st or 2nd as you say.
Then come tell me about effort when you have 0 defensives and 0 mobility and actually have to cast as casters do

[Marmaga-ragnaros]

You confuse popularity of a class with being OP. Mages are a popular dps class. Other pure dps class is warlock, Hunter and rogue. When a player decides to roll a dps class its more likely they will roll one of those 4 classes because there is much more chance that there will be 1 spec that will be viable for end game content.

Priests has only 1 dps spec and 2 healing specs. If shadow spec is underperforming during a season they are screwd untill Blizzard decides to fix them.

[Coldsháde-argent-dawn (Coldsháde)]

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

High haste levels ? 20% is not that high enough

20%+PI+hero is enough for the players to start noticing the thing I’ve mentioned.

[Rondakungfu-stormscale]

@Marmaga-ragnaros

You confuse popularity of a class with being OP

Run to rio website and check top tier runs done, which class has the most runs? Let me guess becauase its popular not because its op?

Or
How about the warcraftlogs that show graphs?
They did more dps from the rest 21 specs because they are popular again?

Do you even understand what youre saying

@Marmaga-ragnaros

Priests has only 1 dps spec and 2 healing specs. If shadow spec is underperforming during a season they are screwd untill Blizzard decides to fix them.

Priests where always good in raiding even broken is BFA but they where trash tier in M+ high keys and in pvp. That is the problem in mages, they are top tier everywhere and that has to stop.

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

20%+PI+hero is enough for the players to start noticing the thing I’ve mentioned.

Hardly doubt they did BL last boss PF on pull and sorry to say hardly doubt they BL+PI at the same time
Its a bit of a waste

Also Fmage doesn’t get a big benefit from PI, their UH DK is who gets the most out of of it and generally the most out of all specs do.

[Coldsháde-argent-dawn (Coldsháde)]

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

Also Fmage doesn’t get a big benefit from PI,

I always feel very special when the priest uses PI on me and feel more motivated to press my rotational buttons harder, so yes it does matter.

[Naregserdeg-burning-legion]

You know you can forget any sorts of changes to this while MDI is in progress?

[Rondakungfu-stormscale]

@Coldsháde-argent-dawn

I always feel very special when the priest uses PI on me

If it was you next to me buddy, id PI you instead of me just because youre one of the coolest forum dudes/ettes ive talked with inside here xD

[Coldsháde-argent-dawn (Coldsháde)]

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

If it was you next to me buddy, id PI you instead of me just because youre one of the coolest forum dudes/ettes ive talked with inside here xD

Also, as a side-note, fire does actually benefit from PI. Especially on AoE, where haste is by far the most important stat when you’re using the flamepatch build (which is currently the meta). The days of big mastery stack with mastery amps are no more. Maybe death knights do get more out of it if they know how to use it, but it’s not like PI is useless on a fire mage.

[Minnji-eonar]

@Rondakungfu-stormscale

Also Fmage doesn’t get a big benefit from PI, their UH DK is who gets the most out of of it and generally the most out of all specs do.

On ST it’s an extra pyro which is about a 10% dmg increase to combustion. Also it speeds up the cdr on combustion. Unholy prob get more on Army but doubt they do any other time.

Also jumping/strafing in combust is so you can hit pyro the millisecond PF lands, you don’t get the proc until PF hits. If you wait for the proc to appear after each of your 3 PF, between ping and human reflex you could lose a whole second of a 12 combustion window.

[Nazatrix-defias-brotherhood]

Fire is such a fun and unique spec, the only spec in the game where everything revolves around fire. I haven’t played mage since mop, and now I’m leveling it. I’m literally fascinated by how much fun spec is. As for the difficulty, in my opinion all 3 specs are similar, it just depends on what suits you best. I don’t think fire is harder to play than the other 2 specs, it just needs perfect timing for combustion.