You need to understand, WoW lore is full of retcons.
The game has changed direction so much to the point where in the span of a 0.1 patches some characters were making full-on 180 degree turns in terms of personality.
Another thing is blizzard’s priority and lore direction has changed from long-term to short-term,especially when they dealt with the entire legion a lore prospect that was being built up ever since the start of the franchise in a single patch, even the Lich king lasted more ( Vanilla + Wotlk ).
Okay so you clearly can’t accept it’s immoral and the horde aren’t totally evil no point trying to have a discussion. No differant from that other dwarf
Legion was all about defending azeroth from this crazy end it all legion army and us losing everything on the very first patch, then randomly in 9.3 we just went to the legion world and ended the legion.
At the end of the day, the horde were never the good guys.
The horde reminds me of people who say they have morals, and beliefs, but realistically they do whatever the hell they please, and will justify their own actions that go against their previously established beliefs, through any mental gymnastics.
They used to be a villainous organization, and right now, they are a less villainous organization, but they are not anti heroes.
Alliance tunnel vision aside, the horde has had many versions of it.
Are you speaking of the original horde? the alternate timeline horde? Thrall’s horde? Garrosh’s Horde? Sylvannas’s Legion horde? Vol’jin’s Legion horde? Sylvannas BFA horde? Garrosh’s Catacylsm horde? Early MoP horde? SoO horde?
Choose which one you like.
You can’t really give an identity to the horde since the devs don’t know what to do with them, every new expansion they change their entire structure and drive.
In Catacylsm Garrosh was disgusted with Sylvannas raising the dead, in MoP he unleashed an old god and defiled sacred lands while simultaneously committing multiple warcrimes.
So at the end of the day, the horde is whatever the writer’s mood currently is; Since WoW’s writing team have the memory of a goldfish and the consistency of a toddler’s handwriting.
Why did you open the Dark Portal on your end? Medivh was still human.
Why did you have those cruel internment camps?
Why did you steal all that land from the Trolls?
Why did you murder your kingdom and enslave the majority of their souls into undeath?
Why did you set-up a pretty xenophobic militant cult of zealots?
Why did you destroy the Sunwell?
Why were you racist towards the poor Blood Elves?
Why didn’t you pay the builders who rebuilt Stormwind?
Why did you become bandits and menace the countryside after not getting paid?
Why did you forward settle right near the Horde capital who just wanted to be left in peace?
Why did you try and kill all the Goblins?
Why did you declare War on the Horde even though they were also victims of the Wrathgate disaster?
Why did you forsake the Forsaken?
Why did you cause a struggle over life and death in Northrend?
Why did you raid the homes of those poor Tauren and then massacre them?
Why didn’t you help laser Deathwing to death? Seems other races did all the work.
Why did you shoot our airship over the Pandarian coast?
Why did you massacre all those Horde residents in Dalaran?
Why did you side with the alien invaders who tried to colonies Draenor? Twice. Even though their ship irradiated Azeroth too and the Draenor group went on a Light Jihad.
Why did you immediately throw a tantrum and start attacking the Horde after the Broken Shore assault, despite being told clearly beforehand that the Horde were making their own path towards the objective. Logical minds would have understood that BOTH sides were being sorely contested.
Why did you shoot at the Horde and Sylvanas, unprovoked, in Stormheim?
Why were you racist towards the second set of Crack Elves?
Why did you start the 4th War, attack Undercity and cause even more bloodshed and misery?
Why did you invade and assassinate the king of Zandalar, even though he was not an active combatant in the ongoing Faction war?
Why did your king try and assist the devil in reshaping the afterlife?
Why is Arthas in hell?
Why did Kel’thuzad try and break the devil out of hell?
Why are you forced to become a blue human if you join the Kyrian for long enough?
Why does the Alliance get all the favoritism regarding Faction conflict events from the writers, despite being complete idiots the majority of the time?
Yeah, it’s a bit grim how slaved to the whims of bad writers BOTH Factions are.
The Horde are never really given anything good and are simply set aside until the writers need some “home grown bad guy” to stir stuff up.
The Alliance always win because the writers say so. Not because of anything particularly great about the Alliance. Their victories are contrived and any conflict is strictly superficial to prevent any crying.
The Alliance wins because WoW is a two-faction game, and when the Horde is in a conquering mood, they won’t stop until their enemies are wiped out, at least the Alliance can be shoe-horned into forgiving the Horde yet again.
That’s why faction war stories suck, the Horde always starts it, the Alliance never finishes it, and the Horde always loses due to internal strife, because they get powered up too much for the initial strike for there to be a reasonable ending (And as a nice path back to semi-goodness, although the eagerness of the “rebels” to take part in the initial attacks is always glossed over)
“When the Horde is in a conquering mood” is effectively just saying that the Writers can’t be arsed to give the Alliance any depth and have them stir up for once.
The Alliance are always written as a bunch of simpering hypocritical wimps. Again, there’s no depth. Everything has to be oh so nice and friendly and lovely and forgiven. Every tragedy has to be superficial or also mirrored on the Horde-side.
God forbid the Alliance actually lose for once. God forbid the Alliance are actually (shoddily) written as the bad guys.
We could have had some fantastic legitimate “grey” morality from the Night Elves and Worgen but nope. Nothing.
Tyrande could have even cut Sylvanas’ head off and I would have cheered. Send her to the Maw? Hell no. Bad writing dies here.
The writers just keep on being utterly racist towards the Horde. The Alliance have multiple races that have gone from “grey” or even “evil” to just bland shells.
All the Alliance act the same way. Different heights, maybe, but they all effectively toe the Human line.
I know, it’s terrible, i’m hoping that Anduin being put on the bus means the Alliance can do something even remotely naughty at some point. (Although just relegating the factions to purely a gameplay mechanic instead of a plot driver is even better)
The Alliance can’t lose a war though, can you imagine the Horde doing the “Lawful stupid” forgiveness thing?
Give us external threats, maybe some rogue groups stirring stuff up that everybody fights (If we need an excuse for PvP), but no total faction war storylines.
BFA was the perfect opportunity for that. There was a short story where Slyvanas Saurfang even listed why the Alliance had several good reasons to start a war against the Horde. From the Alliance’s point of view it would have been justice, from the Horde’s it would have been revenge and hate. Ideal basis for gray-toned stories.
Slyvanas could have been the bad guy in it, if she really needed to: As someone who further fuels the war in the shadows and intrigues the Alliance into attacking first.
It’s interesting that there were these approaches. But apparently not from the one who had the last word.
I feel the most recent chance we will have for a while for the Alliance to credible “start ” was in BFA.
While Anduin started the 4th War straight after the War of the Thorns concluded, it could have been so much deeper if elements of the Alliance had a greater influence in getting everything turning.
Greymane continues his vendetta after the Broken Shore, maybe in an Alliance-only scenario trying to kill off Sylvanas. Leaves an injured/dead Night Elf behind, for example.
Imagine if we had fighting in Gilneas as well as Dark Shore and both were incredibly bloody. It would have been the perfect opportunity to show depth and discourse within the Alliance as Greymane and Tirande shirk the authority of the Anduin a bit.
Apart from maybe adding a few genuine war crimes (like an Alliance unit made up of Warlocks, Fire Mages, Assassination Rogues and Unholy Death Knights who’s sole purpose is to do the dirty underhanded tasks) the onus was really on the Horde to cause at least some impact on the War.
A conflict with the Alliance as the main antagonist won’t be seen for a long while, but the seeds could have been sown in BFA if the Horde had actually been written to be impactful. They lost every engagement without any recompense cos “Horde bad.”
Considering that the Horde’s main goal has always been survival, simply thumping the big threat and understanding that “well, we’ve done similar” could still be effective as forgiveness/war resolution. If done well. If not done like a bunch of sniveling lovey-dovey eejits!
But yeah, no real room for a Faction War any time soon. BFA blew that chance with its utterly dismal performance. Skirmishes will still happen. There can be still room for misunderstandings and flashpoints but no real open war.
Give us more for us murder-hobos to explore instead.
I’ve always had the idea that Greymane could have “started” the War of the Thorns and been an aggressive driving force for the Alliance throughout the 4th War thereafter.
I’ve mentioned it to Kotara just there, but imagine if Greymane continues his vendetta after the Broken Shore. Tries to assassinate Sylvanas in Stormwind. Player scenario ensures. The job is almost a success. One Night Elf is left behind. Oh no.
Then, after the Burning of Teldrassil, you could have had both Tirande and Greymane press Anduin to declare war. Heck, even have them begin internal discourse by questioning Anduin’s leadership. Really force Anduin then to grow and be firm rather than a crying daddy’s boy.
Imagine if the Alliance actually pushed hard in the war. Major warfronts started by them instead of the other way around. Attacks on Mulgore, the Ghostlands, even Gilneas?
Definitely have the Horde press their own claims elsewhere but have the Alliance really get into the war. Sylvanas would be the overall villain (that wouldn’t be revealed until the next expansion) but at least make it clever. Sure, maybe she started the War for some (heavily retconned and actually good) Shadowlands reason, but give the Alliance enough rope to hang themselves with, so to speak.
If you even had the Horde win heavily in the war, and certain land only returned partway through the next (N’zoth-focused) expansion, then it could plant the seeds for another war down the line. A war of Alliance vengeance.
for once.