Why not kill hyperspawn farming once and for all?

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Uda-uldum

Who is the sole creator of tokens ? Blizzard or bots ?

That’s like saying the central bank is the seller of everything because they print the money.

The token is a medium of exchange. Blizzard does not sell gold, they facilitate gold moving from one player to another. That’s still bad, but if Blizzard were creating the gold and then selling it as well it would cause outrageous inflation and crash the game instantly.

@Uda-uldum

BEFORE : Swipe card on some Chinese web-page. A un-trustworthy entity. You give 20E to some Chinese farmers.

You’re still giving money to those farmers, just through Blizzard. There are entire communities, which I will not link here, dedicated to converting Blizzard balance into games and pets and toys that can be gifted to players in exchange for cash. So you go in there, you ask if you can get Diablo 4 or something for €50, and you give them your battletag, they add you and gift you Diablo 4 for €70 worth of balance, and you give them your €50. You can do this with pets and toys and whatever else your heart desires.

This was going on big time in the boosting communities as well, which is why several of them got busted by Blizzard and there were huge banwaves.

@Aphandra-terenas

GW2 has a similar mechanic, they call it bonus xp but inside out, a fresh mob is 25% xp and possibly less loot, too. At least, could be.

@Brewni-argent-dawn

This would be terrible for people who are just questing to level up. Getting no xp from mobs would feel awful and slow the levelling process.

I wouldn’t put a simpler timer on it. Again, terrible idea.

Let’s say there’s a spawn every 60 seconds but hyperspawns are happening every 5 seconds because it’s congested or there’s farming going on or whatever. What the game does is every 60 seconds it marks a random mob as “regular spawn”. If there is no hyperspawning one will spawn exactly 60 seconds apart and be instantly marked, but if there’s hyperspawns there may be mobs that are not marked yet, but will be once the regular spawn kicks in.

Hyperspawned mobs do not give XP or loot, but they do count towards quest completion and give quest items. How do you know it’s hyperspawned? A debuff on it. Simple as that.

[Faefu-argent-dawn]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

The token is a medium of exchange. Blizzard does not sell gold, they facilitate gold moving from one player to another.

the panda isn’t wrong. it’s like bliz makes money from us trading gold with each other (I love these emotes)

[Uda-uldum]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

The token is a medium of exchange. Blizzard does not sell gold, they facilitate gold moving from one player to another. That’s still bad, but if Blizzard were creating the gold and then selling it as well it would cause outrageous inflation and crash the game instantly.

You know inflation in games is much more complex than that. And not as complicated as a central bank printing money.

Literally : Inflation depends on how many 5M gold Brontosaurus gold sinks you have. The more you have, the less inflation you have.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

You’re still giving money to those farmers, just through Blizzard. There are entire communities, which I will not link here, dedicated to converting Blizzard balance into games and pets and toys that can be gifted to players in exchange for cash. So you go in there, you ask if you can get Diablo 4 or something for €50, and you give them your battletag, they add you and gift you Diablo 4 for €70 worth of balance, and you give them your €50. You can do this with pets and toys and whatever else your heart desires.

This was going on big time in the boosting communities as well, which is why several of them got busted by Blizzard and there were huge banwaves.

Of course. I knew that already. I will quote myself :

@Uda-uldum

The ONLY reason gold sellers still exist is because they undercut blizzard tokens. And there still are people out there stupid enough to actually buy it.

There. They undercut Blizz. So a Diablo 4 game costs 50E in blizzard store? Those chinese farmers sell it to you for 40E. Simple.

But that is by no means proof of a “transaction” mediated by blizz. Its just Chinese bots selling you other things on top of pure gold. Which they also sell for a credit card swipe.

And if they could buy Diablo4 with just gold, they would also sell it to you. With pure gold.

But not that I think about it… the fact that ALL that extra gold the bots are massing… it used to be a massive inflation problem in the past.

Not anymore, because if they dump all their gold in Tokens… it disapears from circulation. Not too shabby.

But in the end : WHO CARES ?

My point was that when it comes to gold selling, there are significantly LESS people doing that. Because in the past (before tokens) you had no alternative.

Today you atleast have that alternative of doing things “legit” : Buying gold with tokens, and then buying games/cosmetics via ingame shop.

And let me just quote myself once more : To be extra sure I get the message across.

@Uda-uldum

there still are people out there stupid enough to actually buy it.

And let me tell you something : This “zero sum game” of tokens I dont beleive it. Tokens have a special tab in the AH. AND, when someone “buys it” you dont see his name. Unlike ANY other item in the AH.

How weird? Why would they do that?

Maybe its because its regulated. You dont really sell tokens to people. You sell them back to blizz. And blizz gives you tokens for gold.

And they are content because the amount of people buying legit cosmetics is >>> than idiots giving their credit card details to shady people on the internet.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Uda-uldum

You know inflation in games is much more complex than that. And not as complicated as a central bank printing money.

Literally : Inflation depends on how many 5M gold Brontosaurus gold sinks you have. The more you have, the less inflation you have.

No. It’s not. The IRL equivalent to Brutosaur mounts is collecting taxes and using it to pay down government debt, therefore removing the cash from circulation.

The price of goods is directly linked to how much gold they issue vs. how much they remove. If they issue a truckload of gold, it causes inflation, and no method could possibly be faster than straight up adding 350k gold for €20, infinitely and repeatedly purchaseable. No amount of Brutosaurs could possibly deal with that inflow.

@Uda-uldum

There. They undercut Blizz. So a Diablo 4 game costs 50E in blizzard store? Those chinese farmers sell it to you for 40E. Simple.

But that is by no means proof of a “transaction” mediated by blizz. Its just Chinese bots selling you other things on top of pure gold. Which they also sell for a credit card swipe.

The difference is before you had to go to sketchy websites to get gold. Now you have to go to sketchy websites to buy battle.net’s equivalent to CD keys.

In other words, the transaction risk is being taken on by somebody else.

And yes, some gold sellers just undercut Blizzard directly - that’s true also.

@Uda-uldum

But in the end : WHO CARES ?

My point was that when it comes to gold selling, there are significantly LESS people doing that. Because in the past (before tokens) you had no alternative.

Tokens IS gold selling. There is not a reduction in the amount of gold buying, there is a vast increase! It’s just that the majority is legitimate, but it’s still fundamentally buying gold. Buying it legit is not an alternative to buying gold, it’s still buying gold - just legit.

@Uda-uldum

And let me tell you something : This “zero sum game” of tokens I dont beleive it. Tokens have a special tab in the AH. AND, when someone “buys it” you dont see his name. Unlike ANY other item in the AH.

They’ve said so, and I’ve seen it run dry. I know it’s true. I don’t really need you to believe it though - you are most free to remain ignorant.

@Uda-uldum

How weird? Why would they do that?

Fundamentally the token is designed to vastly decrease risk, and they took it all the way to Blizzard covering the difference between what is paid out and in, making sure it balances out when they set the price. In other words, the seller and buyer may not have the same price listed, and Blizzard makes up the difference. So in that sense they may occasionally create gold, but they also absorb gold.

[Uda-uldum]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

No. It’s not. The IRL equivalent to Brutosaur mounts is collecting taxes and using it to pay down government debt, therefore removing the cash from circulation.

The price of goods is directly linked to how much gold they issue vs. how much they remove. If they issue a truckload of gold, it causes inflation, and no method could possibly be faster than straight up adding 350k gold for €20, infinitely and repeatedly purchaseable. No amount of Brutosaurs could possibly deal with that inflow.

OK.

I need 300kg for this mog I want to buy.

Today : I buy 1 token for 20E and get my 300kg.

In the past : I farmed quests/mobs that spawn free gold out of thin air.

In both scenarios, its 300kg out of thin air.

However, what ended up happening in the past is that I realized farming is too annoying… so I “pay” some Chinese bots to do exactly that for me : generate free gold out of nowhere.

But gold STILL comes from nowhere… And blizzard can tweek how much gold quests and mobs give, can tweek hyperspawn locations… AND… can decide on the spot how much G 1 token can give.

So. Back to “its the same as in RL”.

• I WISH with all my heart that I kill a squirl on the park and 10 euros spontaneously appear out of thin air.

• I wish I can just gather some junk from a dump. Go to ANY coffee shop and sell ALL that junk for money. No questions asked. Also… even though the business NEVER sells anything… but keeps buying junk from people… they NEVER go out of business…

• There is some omnipotent god that decides on the whim. And for no reason at all… how much gold is dropped by said squirl, and given by said business.

Sure… Like in RL.

Jokes aside… You got a point 100%. Inflation as a concept exists in WoW the same way it exits in RL. And its a problem both in WoW and in RL. But you should not make a 1:1 conversion like that.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

The difference is before you had to go to sketchy websites to get gold. Now you have to go to sketchy websites to buy battle.net’s equivalent to CD keys.

In other words, the transaction risk is being taken on by somebody else.

What I do know as a dumb consumer is : Dont give credit card details to strangers like that.

Especially to people that are CLEARLY doing something illegal.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

Tokens IS gold selling. There is not a reduction in the amount of gold buying, there is a vast increase! It’s just that the majority is legitimate, but it’s still fundamentally buying gold. Buying it legit is not an alternative to buying gold, it’s still buying gold - just legit.

100% correct.

My point of view (and only MINE) is that I accept that it will happen anyways. It happens in every game, and happened for the past 20 years.

Atleast… its legit and peoples credit card are not being stolen.

And to be honest… lets add some crazy amounts of hopium … since we give the $$ to blizz, maybe they re-invest it to the game… Wishful thinking…

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

Fundamentally the token is designed to vastly decrease risk, and they took it all the way to Blizzard covering the difference between what is paid out and in, making sure it balances out when they set the price. In other words, the seller and buyer may not have the same price listed, and Blizzard makes up the difference. So in that sense they may occasionally create gold, but they also absorb gold.

I guess il have to believe you.

Either way. I will keep believing that there are more people buying gold/cosmetics from Blizz (legit) than people doing the iligal thing and going through those boters.

Otherwise im sure Blizz will have something to say, since they are the recipients of most of the profits (currently).

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Uda-uldum

OK.

I need 300kg for this mog I want to buy.

Today : I buy 1 token for 20E and get my 300kg.

In the past : I farmed quests/mobs that spawn free gold out of thin air.

In both scenarios, its 300kg out of thin air.

Yes, but it’s all about the rate of issuance isn’t it. In one case you got 300k in approximately 10 seconds, and in the other… well, if you can use tradeskills you could get it done in a week or two if you’re good - though this in fact does not cause inflation as no gold is actually added (someone else spent theirs), but if you’re just gonna sell the greys that drop? Months. Maybe even years.

@Uda-uldum

However, what ended up happening in the past is that I realized farming is too annoying… so I “pay” some Chinese bots to do exactly that for me : generate free gold out of nowhere.

You still pay those bots to do that for you, even through the token system. Nothing’s changed except that your risk is now near 0. You get away with it scott-free, guaranteed.

That of course can be seen as a positive since risking your account is a bad thing to do and that allows you to do what you want, but you’re doing damage to the economy because the bots still show up and they still wreck everything because you’re buying it, even if it’s the token. It makes no difference in the end.

@Uda-uldum

I WISH with all my heart that I kill a squirl on the park and 10 euros spontaneously appear out of thin air.

HA, they do it far easier than that. Realistically all you’d need is a printer and off you go.

The only difference is they’ve made it illegal for you to do it. Only they’re allowed to, and they don’t even have to kill a squirrel.

@Uda-uldum

I wish I can just gather some junk from a dump. Go to ANY coffee shop and sell ALL that junk for money. No questions asked. Also… even though the business NEVER sells anything… but keeps buying junk from people… they NEVER go out of business…

Have you ever heard of pawn shops?

@Uda-uldum

There is some omnipotent god that decides on the whim. And for no reason at all… how much gold is dropped by said squirl, and given by said business.

That’s the central bank.

@Uda-uldum

What I do know as a dumb consumer is : Dont give credit card details to strangers like that.

Haha, no of course not. I don’t actually know how the payment is done as I’ve never done it, but if I were in that situation I’d definitely transact through an intermediary, such as PayPal or Wise, at the very least. If I could go completely anonymous I’d like to do that instead. Bitcoin if possible.

@Uda-uldum

100% correct.

My point of view (and only MINE) is that I accept that it will happen anyways. It happens in every game, and happened for the past 20 years.

A common opinion, but not one that I share. It is a matter of degree. How easy is it, and how much can be prevented.

As an exercise in devil’s advocacy, I can make the same argument but with murder instead. It’s gonna happen regardless of how illegal we make it, but that is no excuse to make it commonplace and ingrain it into the culture as an okay thing to do.

I certainly accept the notion that Blizzard’s enforcement has been lacking. Always. It is regrettable, but not inevitable.

[Uda-uldum]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

As an exercise in devil’s advocacy, I can make the same argument but with murder instead. It’s gonna happen regardless of how illegal we make it, but that is no excuse to make it commonplace and ingrain it into the culture as an okay thing to do.

The fact that murder is illegal will not change the end result.

Do you really think that people that murder say : "oh… I did not know it was illegal, what a surprise ! ".

Of course they know the consequences. Its just that in the moment, they either (A) dont care. Or (B) think that they are special and will get away with it.

And the #1 reason murder is not a common thing is because : People have no reason to murder other people. There are easier, more convenient ways to achieve what you want with out murdering people.

Which brings me to :

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

A common opinion, but not one that I share. It is a matter of degree. How easy is it, and how much can be prevented.

If buying gold is the easy, convenient way to acquire what I want, I will.

And it is a common opinion. And it will continue to be the common opinion as long as farming gold is a grindy, boring, inefficient endevour.

Ideally, you would want to shift gold aquisition to the actual content a person does. For example : Winning PvP arenas gives gold. Completing M+ dungeons gives gold (50g does not count)…

In such a way that if you play the game, you acquire all the gold you need plus some extra. And Blizz just tweeks how much you acquire such that there is no rampant inflation.

Then… mobs drop no gold. Or copper… but not gold.

DONE. Want gold ? Play the game.

Currently its : Want gold ? Pause whatever you were doing and go do something you did not want to do in the first place. Do it every day for a week… and THEN… buy the thing you want, in order to do what you wanted to do.

Its a bad system by design. And it 100% justifies buying gold.

And to give you a real world case of how abhorrent that is… Remix…

I am currently farming my but for Bronze cause I want my rewards.

It is DISGUSTING. And it kills the fun of the “chill relax” mode only because I have a “quota” of Bronze I need to farm each day in order to buy the mogs I want.

And beleive me. 100%. If there was a way to buy Bronze, with out giving your account details so some bot that farms in your account…

People would be buying it in droves. Literally. And im not kidding.

Im starting to get PTSD like in 2004 farming this crap…

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Uda-uldum

The fact that murder is illegal will not change the end result.

No, unfortunately, but it will change the frequency of the end result occurring, decreasing the overall societal impact.

@Uda-uldum

And the #1 reason murder is not a common thing is because : People have no reason to murder other people. There are easier, more convenient ways to achieve what you want with out murdering people.

We have a strong “stigma” against it in our culture, but eye-for-an-eye, honour killings, suicides etc. have been very common throughout history in all manner of cultures.

Humans are the worst.

@Uda-uldum

And it is a common opinion. And it will continue to be the common opinion as long as farming gold is a grindy, boring, inefficient endevour.

The bots is what makes it so. Having tried this game recently without bots overrunning it - twice - I can say this with confidence. It is amazing what Hardcore did to the economy. Just completely fixed it for months. Bots couldn’t play well enough and died. And then of course 10.0 where the lack of flying had killed all the bots. They couldn’t figure out how to navigate quickly to new patches, and they had a very hard time with the talents as well. I could farm thousands of gold in just 20 minutes. I didn’t even have to focus on it - just pick stuff up as I quested or waited for groups to form. It was awesome.

In 10.0 I made almost 1 million gold, and it was kept me afloat for the rest of the expansion. Since the bots came back I am slowly draining out again, now down to 460k iirc.

[Uda-uldum]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

Humans are the worst.

Yes. But not always. We are in the most peaceful era in history after all. Whatever statistics and whatever headlines you read.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

It is amazing what Hardcore did to the economy. Just completely fixed it for months.

I disagree. Fixed what exactly ?

99.9% of HC players did not make it past 30. And those that did “ding” 60… realized the insane. Crazy. BORING farming sessions required just to participate in end-game content.

For example : you ding 60. GJ for you. Now… craft epic armor before you even step foot in dungeons.

And that is why… so many people left HC and its a dead server. What is the point of doing all that AGAIN if you die ?

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

I could farm thousands of gold in just 20 minutes. I didn’t even have to focus on it - just pick stuff up as I quested or waited for groups to form. It was awesome.

That is because you liked questing. In 10.0 I spent it ALL in the best purple upgrades on week 1. Which, if you remember, cost a fortune.

Or embellishments/crafted items. The supply of raw materials was so low, especially the 3 gold materials that it cost a massive fortune to be up to date.

NOPE. I am ABSOLUTELY not farming WQ to get gold. NOPE.

What I want is for gold to come naturally from the activity I do. Whatever that may be. WQ, M+, Raiding, PvP, whatever.

And that quantity to be adjusted for the price of things. So if enchants are super expensive, I get more G. If they drop in price, I get less G.

And with that, I can guarantee you 100% that bots will have no clients to sell to.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

without bots overrunning it

Remix dosent have bots. So its the 3rd example you can quote where bots dont exist.

And guess what ? Farming SUCKS. Im sorry to tell you that.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Uda-uldum

Yes. But not always.

Of course not always.

@Uda-uldum

I disagree. Fixed what exactly ?

The economy! What you talked about afterwards is not the economy. Sure, there’s all sorts of bad things about it, but what it did was it made nearly every item you could craft or gather, even from level 5, valuable. Everything could be sold and consumed. Players were buying gear to overpower mobs, getting pots and flasks and all the rest of it just because it increased their chance of not dying, and the bots couldn’t get a foothold due to them dying.

@Uda-uldum

That is because you liked questing.

No. I just flew around and gathered herbs while waiting for queues. Seriously!

@Uda-uldum

And that quantity to be adjusted for the price of things. So if enchants are super expensive, I get more G. If they drop in price, I get less G.

That’s not how anything works. At all.

But sure, dropping some crafting mats or something from PvP and M+ would definitely be a welcome change.

@Uda-uldum

Remix dosent have bots. So its the 3rd example you can quote where bots dont exist.

And guess what ? Farming SUCKS. Im sorry to tell you that.

Remix just sucks period x’D

Are there even professions in Remix? I can’t find any.

[Aphandra-terenas]

@Uda-uldum

Literally : Inflation depends on how many 5M gold Brontosaurus gold sinks you have. The more you have, the less inflation you have.

I used to believe in this, because it literally does what you say.

However, I believe this also incentivizes further hoarding of money.
(Ultimately you pay with your time…)
So those interested in collecting these will increase their boost and auction prices, or buy gold.
Regular players either farm harder, or buy gold.

I live in a country affected quite badly by the 2020-2023 events. Wave after wave, certain prices increased. What did people do? Ask for 25% salary boost. What did ultimately change?

Same is in WoW, if you spend 10 hours in Classic Era, you’ll have 2 gold, if you spend 10 hours in retail, way more.

[Aphandra-terenas]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

Are there even professions in Remix? I can’t find any.

I think the idea with Remix is that you earn what you have.
There is literally no trading, which unironically disincentivizes bots. Except for science.

I was always of two minds about professions. Did them for completeness’ sake, but when on the occasion I didn’t, the game was so much nicer. Odd situations aside, I hardly ever equipped items I crafted - usually just the starting items, otherwise I had better stuff from different sources.

There is this binary feel about them, they are either useless or mandatory (BiS). They are either cheap (you craft yourself) or expensive (allowing early birds to become magnates and milk the playerbase for their own benefit - if you want to M+, you have to buy this item off me, 1m gold thank you very much).

I’m perfectly happy without them, one less distraction / obsession (progress bar to fill).
I understand that merchant type players are sad, not sure what to do.

[Keento-argent-dawn]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

Are there even professions in Remix? I can’t find any.

only fishing I believe?

[Souldefiler-blades-edge (Souldefíler)]

@Faefu-argent-dawn

oh, come on now. stop drinking the frog juice.

[Uda-uldum]

@Aphandra-terenas

I used to believe in this, because it literally does what you say.

However, I believe this also incentivizes further hoarding of money.
(Ultimately you pay with your time…)

Inflation in WoW will always exist. Because gold spontaneously appears out of nowhere.

As long as there is always something to buy, people will farm gold. And once that does not exit anymore, or people bought all there is to buy then people will hoard money as well.

So blizzard is in a pickle. Inflation is inevitable.

Things to dump money just delay the inevitable.

@Aphandra-terenas

I live in a country affected quite badly by the 2020-2023 events. Wave after wave, certain prices increased. What did people do? Ask for 25% salary boost. What did ultimately change?

Sad to hear that. But I dont think reality == wow. The same concepts apply thats for sure. But IMO in RL there are a ton more variables to consider.

[Honeybean-aggramar]

@Faefu-argent-dawn

I get that there is a bot problem but we can´t dumb down the grind because of that. how are raiders/hardcore players going to farm gold and mats for the tools they need?

Edit: Misread what you said. Oops.

That’s a good point about HC players.

[Faefu-argent-dawn]

@Honeybean-aggramar

Hardcore guilds and raiders have never farmed the materials for themselves. Ever. They sell boost runs for the current content and use the gold to buy stocks for the new and upcoming raid patches.

It wouldn’t affect them in the slightest.

wasn´t boosting now a no no? or was that for classics or something?

[Honeybean-aggramar]

@Faefu-argent-dawn

wasn´t boosting now a no no? or was that for classics or something?

Boosting is allowed for gold as far as I’m aware. It’s when it becomes real life transactions that are the problem. If boosting was bannable, then there goes the vast majority of all the Mythic raiding guilds lol.

[Beerwolf-sunstrider (Beerwolf)]

You can get Tailoring in the SoO raid off an NPC in their profession shack leading to the Den/Ozgrim.

But it’s 100% useless because there’s no mats you can level it with.

Wonder if the Engineer NPC is about… least that’d give access to engineer restricted toys.

[Beerwolf-sunstrider (Beerwolf)]

MoP → WoD saw the biggest inflation ever…

20k gold in MoP became 300k in WoD, courtesy of the Garrison throwing away free gold.

And since then we’ve had the game throw gold at you like no tomorrow… like in DF a single character doing just the gold reward WQs nets you 25-30+k per week for spending half an hour on! 2 chars? 50+k gold. 4? 100k/week…