Why rogue is the least played class

Community General Discussion
81

we will never know

82

I love to annoy enemy healers in random epic bgs as rogue, or randoms in warmode.
I don’t even come out from stealth, just sap, blind, distract…maybe sometimes stun then vanish back.
Rogue lost it’s flavor abilities over the years do. Trap disarming, pikcpocketing becoming redundant, opening locks becoming available for more and more professions.

PS.: Yes, I know I will burn in hell for the first part, no need to remind me, thank you.

83

fix rogue (sad huh) nah :stuck_out_tongue: 4th specc combat

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84

I mean, just sapping people in the open world without the intention to attack them - maybe you should burn a little for that :smiley: Everything else is OK I guess)

Not only do they nerf rogues, they also give everything that made rogues unique to everyone else or just take it away entirely like it happened with disarm trap and burst of speed. I just can’t stop noticing how everything rogue has - someone else has a better version of it. Even the damn hunters with the move speed aspect are faster in camo than sub rogues in stealth, what?! Not to mention stealth just breaks randomly all the time.

I guess distract is the only unique thing rogue has now. And we can’t even add some speed buff to it or something to make it a bit more useful)

Combat should return one way or another. But definitely fix rogues as well. The only love rogues got in TWW is freaking bubbling wax. And we got it in exchange for a gutted blind, for increased KS cooldown, for taking away SD from assa*, for making sub damage outside of cooldowns negative. Probably forgot a lot of stuff as well.

* I agree with removing SD from assa, but they left all the reasons why it was added in the talent tree and their alternatives are miles weaker

85

See, the thing is… just being able to stealth and stab doesn’t make for a great class fantasy in a world of varied magic melee users.

Rogues require other classes to be anemic and underpowered to be popular, but that can’t happen in a m+ world. That says everything you need to know. The fantasy is not strong enough to keep it popular on its own.

I think they need to revamp and strongly lean into pirate, ninja and assassin archetypes. It needs to be way flashier than it currently is.
Actually, a ninja tank spec would be very cool.

But hey, that’s my opinion. I never enjoyed rogue. They always felt plain. I don’t think power is the issue.

Valeera will take over from Brann next season, so we will see rogue spins of tank and healer.

86

What are you talking about? Rogue is the staple of fantasy RPG genre. That doesn’t make any sense at all to me, sorry.

Was everyone anemic and underpowered for the first 6 years of the game? What about first 10 years? If even that is “anemic” for some reason (HOW?), then what about for the first 15 years?

This is not an M+ world and don’t make it seem like it is. It was never meant to be the game about M+, it should’ve never been a game about M+ and it should never be a game about M+ in the future. M+ can burn entirely for all I care. But I also know that a lot of people like it, so the solution was stated earlier. Make M+ less demanding in terms of mobility and CC. That’s it, it is really that simple.

LK25HC was in WotLK, one of the hardest fights in WoW, first kill took the best guild of that era 20 minutes without mistakes. And still, only rogue and druid had sprint, only mage had blink, only hunter had reverse blink.

It must be some kind of arcane game design knowledge I guess. Totally lost now. Can’t have that anymore.

Well, maybe you’re right here. A lot of people mention flashiness. And they can even add something like you suggest as a fourth spec, who knows.

To me, the feel is paramount. I want to feel like I’m a rogue (thief/assassin/spy/pirate/etc). Legion had that during the class hall campaign, BfA had that with the war campaign partially. Before, having PvP worlds also helped with the immersion. Nothing even remotely close since then.

The identity of the class was also much better. Everyone had things nobody else had. And those things were meaningful. Rogue had poisons and poisons did damage, they did huge debuffs, etc. Now my poison damage in sub is 1% and in PvP I have to stack wound 5 times and it’s still weaker than before. Rogue had the best CC. Rogue could flag cap like nobody else. And a lot of other stuff. All of that is gone!

Rogue simply doesn’t feel the best at anything now, and the whole idea of the class was to be the best at CC and have a lot of tricks up the sleeve. What does rogue get now? Nerf after nerf of those tricks. Designers outright killed multiple tricks rogues had in TWW alone. But we got bubbling wax so it evens out I guess (jk).

I think we’re just gonna hear CHAMPION in Valeera’s voice then, lol
Also, rogue stealth still won’t be of any use in any of her stealth quests, screenshot that line.

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87

You have my seal of approval

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88

I like rogue, but i don’t play latest/engame content, so i can’t fully comment on that.
Out of 3 specs i love only one, Assassination! :astonished:
There is something about “stab, bleed, bleed, bleed” and watching your foe bleeding out, i don’t know, just like the premise of it. (I don’t have a problem!)

But that’s being said, my only experience with PvP rogues is the time when some wild rogue with buffs/gear out the wazoo killing auctioneers/unaware players in the Stormwind City on RP realm and queue-escapes when things got too hot, i guess this is the peak of WoW-PvP right here.

89

Im not playing a rat class LOL

90

That’s completely understandable, poisons and bleeds are a very important part of the class fantasy. Even though warriors, ferals and even hunters have bleeds as well, It’s definitely harder to imagine them using those bleeds because they enjoy dealing with their enemies in this way. Works especially great if you’re playing undead. And if you win, might as well eat a bit too, double win!

And now that I think about it, barbed shot is definitely a deliberate choice as well, so hunters are also kinda sick in this way. And there are swords, axes and especially maces with huge spikes for warriors too…

I’m a bit concerned someone at Blizz might read that comment and start pushing for removal of all of it :smiley:

Yes, you aren’t playing a rat, you’re playing a warrior!

Man, those warriors… They should start adding a padding to their helmets or something.

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91

the solo PvE gameplay as a rogue is always a bore

92

Remember the hybrid tax? I get the feeling you forgot.

M+ is by far the most popular game mode. It is what it is. Have to live with it.

Agree. The feel is paramount, as in looking cool while doing it is paramount. It’s what captures people’s attention and makes them say “wow! i want to play THAT!”
Don’t agree with the having to have all the unique tools. I think rogue already has pretty unique things like teleports, and hooks that others don’t have. It’s impossible to create a totally unique skill set for every class. There will be some overlap. It’s just how it is.
That is what i mean… rogue shouldn’t have to be the best to be popular. It should be able to be an attractive option to play even not being OP. For that. it needs to look cool while doing it.
That’s what i believe anyways. As someone who never found rogue an exciting option, that is what it would take for me to play mine more seriously.

93

Even leveling with the scaling rogue is painfull, otherwise rogue just has too high APM and how perfect it needs to be with its rotation. So its not suprise that so many rogue mains even has ditched it

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94

I’m not sure what exactly you mean here, could you elaborate?

I do live with it, but I absolutely disagree the whole game should be balanced around it. This game mode was added for people who can’t raid for various reasons. The main mode was raiding. Instead of being a side mode for mostly casuals as intended, similar to delves now, it turned into a pretty sweaty mode required even for raiders. It’s much more chill to do casual non-mythic raiding than to do even moderately high keys. This is stupid as hell and I’m convinced this is bad for the game in the long term. The negative long-term effects are everywhere already, we are discussing them right now. This whole thread in multiple pages describes problems that exist for a number of reasons and M+ is pretty high on that list.

I’m not against M+ or even its rewards, I’m against the hyperfocus on M+, which step by step turns the once great game into a single mode one-dimensional session-like mobile-like crap. And while I say that, I understand nothing will change regarding the importance of M+, neither in the next expansion, nor in the ones that will follow. But don’t tell me the designers can’t think about other modes while thinking about M+. Don’t tell me they can’t hire people who know anything at all about PvP and appreciate it. Don’t tell me it’s impossible to design M+ fights that don’t requires blinks and sprints.

You want a fire puddle you must get out of quickly? Make it do less damage initially and ramp up. Done, solved game design for you.

You want a deadly area you must get out of after a cast? Make a cast longer. Done, solved game design again.

You want a to catch some flying crap after a couple of seconds of some swirly on the ground? Believe it or not, make swirlies be there longer. It feels like magic but it actually works! I think they should try it.

That’s not exactly what I meant by feel. The looks are only part of it. Being able to do cool things and having just immersive gameplay is more important in my opinion. Too much flashiness could be bad for the class, but they definitely should work in this direction. They could at least make cool looking poisons and some toggle to show them maybe, for those who prefer weapon illusions. Or just new poison illusions. At least some old sounds also felt punchier. Some abilities definitely can be reworked to look at least a little bit impressive. But still, I think most people who stopped playing rogue did it primarily because other classes are just better in everything. Not everyone wants flashiness, but few people want to play a class that’s consistently nerfed and neglected in general, while others are getting cool stuff.

Shadow step was part of sub since TBC if I’m not mistaken. Which was so long ago we can safely say it was always there. Sprint was from day 1. There’s still nothing else rogue has, no mobility buttons except that.

Ok outlaw has hook, but that’s only outlaw. The spec has so many problems most people won’t touch it with a long stick.

Sub has shadow strike that is free shadow step built-in if used from stealth (not from shadow dance though). I won’t say that is great mobility, but it’s nice in the open world and in BGs sometimes. If only sub was good in the open world now)

What about assassination though? It’s literally one of the worst specs in the game in terms of mobility right now. How is that even possible for an agile assassin to be slower than the guy in full plate armor? Why is the damn mage blinks around and time travels so much that even Pikaboo can get confused of what the hell is going on (the guy has every single R1 title since Cata if I’m not mistaken), but rogue has 1 sprint every minute and shadow step, both of which rogue always had?

There was a solution - burst of speed. It was added in MoP and then deleted from the game entirely in Legion. Rogues had fun mobility button for 2 expansions, then Blizzard decided rogues shouldn’t have fun.

Well, that’s simply not true. I mean it is, but “some” overlap in e.g. WotLK and “some” overlap now are COMPLETELY different "some"s. In WotLK, I can’t name many buttons that act exactly the same. And I’m not talking visually or numerically, I’m talking much deeper. For example, in WotLK:

A little wall of text
  • Only rogues and druids have sprint. Rogue can use it whenever he wants, druid must be in the cat form.
  • Only mage has blink. Only hunters have reverse “blink”.
  • Only warriors and druids have charge, but druids must take that talent deep in the feral tree and must be in cat or bear form.
  • Only priests and paladins can dispell magic from friendly targets. For curses and diseases it’s a bit more complicated, but not everyone can dispell them as well. I think at least either a priest or a paladin can’t decurse, but mages, druids and restoration shamans can. Or something like that.
  • Only priests and shamans can dispell buffs from enemies. Well, mages can as well, but it costs much more mana and gives the buff to the mage for up to 2 minutes. Warlock’s felhunter might as well, I don’t quite remember how exactly it worked.
  • Only rogues, paladins, warriors, druids, warlocks, mages, hunters and DKs have stun (maybe I forgot someone). But, and it’s a huge but: it’s not like now, when most classes have mostly the same duration stuns, no, not at all. Rogue has two stuns which don’t share DR, but one is only useable from stealth or shadow dance and the other consumes combo points (everything is still the same, except they are nerfed to the ground). Paladins have a stun which is as good as the one that rogue has and no combo points, BUT it is magical, so it can be dispelled by other paladins or priests. Warrior has access to 4 stuns, one of which is AoE, which is insane, but actually two of them are unreachable for anyone except prot, and the other two are microstun from charge and only ~3 seconds from intercept (the last two require different stances as well). Druids have three stuns, two that are very similar to rogues (one from stealth and another consumes combo points, separate DR as well), both are only in cat, third one is only in bear. Warlocks can only stun in destruction, it’s not a long stun, but it’s AoE. Mages can only stun in frost and it’s the one of the main cooldowns to do damage, so if you’re just using it for CC and not damage, you’re giving up your very important 45s CD. Hunters and DKs only have pet stun, but pets can be killed or CCd.
  • Only druids, mages, warriors and hunters have root. Druids have magic root which is spammable. Mages have magic roots which are not spammable, but increase their damage in frost. Warriors have physical (not dispellable) root procced from the hamstring, 5-15% chance for 1-3 talents respectively, and there is a major glyph for another 10% IIRC. Hunters can have a pet root, but then they don’t have a pet stun.
  • Only DK, rogues, warriors, ferals, hunters and mages have slow if I’m not mistaken. DK has the most potent one at the start (~90%) but then it goes to 50% until the end of the debuff IIRC, it’s magic (dispellable) and requires a frost or unholy rune. Rogue has 70% from poison, it must proc, but there’s a 10s CD shiv to apply it on demand, it’s dispellable by classes that can dispell poison. Warrior has access to two on demand slows, hamstring and piercing howl, both are 50%, physical and cost rage, howl is AoE. Hunter has concussive shot, which has ~6-10 sec CD (don’t remember if it’s dispellable). Feral has a talent that makes maul apply slow, it is physical, 50%, part of the rotation, but you have to spend 3 points for it. Arcane has slow, which is arguably the best slow in the game - it’s spammable, longest range (35 yd?) but dispellable (magic).
  • 4 classes have disarm, rogue, warrior, priest and hunter. But not all of them remove the offhand weapon as well as the main hand. Hunter’s one requires a certain debuff (sting) to be applied that replaces the one that does damage, then you have to use a shot that does the most damage when the damage debuff is applied (10s CD or something, which means to use disarm you have to trade your highest damage shot and need more time. Warrior must also be in defensive stance for a disarm.
  • Only two classes have blind - rogue and fire mage. Rogue’s blind is long, mage’s blind is twice as short but AoE.
  • Only rogue has gouge.
  • Only rogue and hunter have sap. One is almost melee, requires stealth or shadow dance and has no cooldown. Another is ranged, you have to aim the trap on the ground, has 30 seconds CD and is dispellable, but doesn’t require stealth since hunters didn’t have stealth back then.
  • Only rogues and druids had stealth. Druids must be in the cat form to use one but are slightly faster because of that, if I’m not mistaken. But rogues can talent deeper stealth, meaning it’s harder to detect rogues in stealth and they can also put talents to improve their own stealth detection.

And I’m not even touching some types of CC (sleep, charm, knockback) and anti-CC here which are also all unique and rare. It’s enough already to prove that classes absolutely can be designed to have unique tools and, in fact, they already had unique tools before.

I never said rogue should be the best. I said rogue should be the king of CC as it was forever, until Blizzard decided to butcher it. First in Cata they killed stun DRs, which was arguably justified since rogues got significantly more damage in Cata compared to WotLK. Then they lowered the damage significantly because rogues were dominating, but didn’t give us back separate DRs (how nice of them). Then in TWW they completely gutted blind and nerfed kidney shot for no reason at all. And I don’t even mention many other nerfs.

Rogue used to have great stuns, that could be matched only by feral, but also had blind, gouge and sap which made him the king of CC. Now almost every class has access to at least some form of stun, which are often as good or better than rogues have. Gouge was given at least to two more classes and their versions are ranged and don’t require the target to be facing you. Blind was given at least to paladins. Stealth was given to hunters who now move in stealth even faster than sub rogues, if they use the movement speed aspect. Sprints and blinks were given to every class as well. Rogue also lost dodge from agility, which made him much more durable and many other things.

Rogue went from having absolutely best tools to having average/outdated tools. I’m not saying rogue should be the only one having the tools like in vanilla, but rogue must have some tools that are the best and other tools that are good. Because rogues don’t have anything else. Or designers could go into more creative directions and add something great and totally unique to rogue, but I wouldn’t hope much for that.

To be popular again, rogues must get some love from Blizzard. Take a look at the rogue forums, a rogue discord or rogue streams - people very often express that they feel the class is neglected, some even feel Blizzard outright hates the class. It really feels like it sometimes. I simply can’t look the state of the game and say many positive things about the current state of rogue compared to other classes.

Hell, how would you feel after all the nerfs and that stupid homogenization, that gave your tools to everyone without giving you anything? How would you feel to get a moonfire applied to you while you’re in stealth far away from the fight, so you can’t stealth for 20 seconds or have to use a 2 minute cooldown, that is also the most important defensive you have? Or when you’re 20-40 yds behind the backs of your teammates on the BG and you get the moonfire anyway cause apparently moonkin must be able to press a button and immediately apply moonfire to the whole map? Or when you’re running in stealth and suddenly it just disappears without taking damage, debuffs, flares and anything like that? Or when Blizzard makes rupture part of your rotation but you can’t get out of combat when there’s your rupture on anyone, even if you die and resurrect?)

I agree that looking cooler wouldn’t hurt though.

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95

Whispyr just did a video documenting assa rogue bugs, it illustrates very well how little attention the class has been getting from the developers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy3vDx7jKD0

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96

Because the class is not fun to play by how its designed and its class identity is all over the place with none of it being an actual rogue/thief/scoundrel.

Its also extremely unfun to play atleast for me in almost every part of the game and gone are the days where i could actually be a rogue open locked doors/chests and sneak past guards to actually assassinate my main target when questing. The class also feels too “magical” to be any sort of just a simple man with a dagger type.

97

Warriors and hunters… something is still not right.
It’s something in the sound effects of the abilities themselves, like garrote or rupture… And how much bleed do warriors and hunters have? One or two? And Assassination have more than 5 different debuffs considered bleed, and all this is seasoned with toxic poison, slowdown and chainstuns. An art of… coughs

In addition, hunters keep a distance, missing out on the direct pleasure of close contact, and warriors are encased in huge, unwieldy plate armor with a huge sword or shield, “The more armor - the more the wearer is afraid”, still something is wrong, not the right vibe.

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98

Do you have an undead or a gnome rogue? Must be either of those two)

Either way, I like the way you think.
You’re always welcome here.

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99

Because it’s a boring class with a boring class fantasy.

The thief/assassin prototype has been overly used in all rpgs and it’s just been too much.

Maybe remake one of its specs into a shadow/void spec like devourer dh to make it more exciting, idk. Or give it a necromancer spec, or holy rogue, something.

100

Warrior, mage and hunter are also “overly used in all rpgs” and also kinda have boring class fantasy. Have you thought about that?

Delete this before someone at Blizzard reads it and thinks holy rogue is a fantastic idea.