WoW is P2W - Do you agree?

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Amonet-ravencrest

It’s 2/4 Mythic track, you still need crest and good RNG to have it drop what you need. And to put this into perspective I have never gotten out of a season with full Mythic slots and I have completed my vaults almost every week this expansion. RNG is RNG.

Crests can also be gained from boosting. Again, the credit card beats these obstacles pretty easily by just hurling money at them.

The RNG point you’re trying to make is weird. Fact of the matter is that someone who’s terrible at the game is never going to complete a +10 Mythic Dungeon by his own ability.

Because that terrible player is me. And I have never and I will never complete a +10 Mythic Dungeon.

But I can buy a +10 Mythic Dungeon boost today. Right now.

And then it doesn’t matter if I’m good or not.

So whereas now I would have 0% chance of ever getting ANY Mythic item in this game, because I’m just not a good enough player to do any Mythic content, then I do actually have the opportunity to deck my character out in full Mythic gear if I want to. I can just swipe my credit card and buy some boosts.
So I can turn that 0% over the course of the Season into 100% by just throwing money at the problem.

I’m a crap player, but I can get better gear than you have by simply using my credit card.

How’s that for a laugh? Go me!

@Amonet-ravencrest

Theoretically true

Practically true as well. Because not all players are flipping the AH, and they never will either. It’s such a niche activity that takes commitment and time and patience. And again, the whole point is that with a credit card you can avoid all that and just instantly get the gold.

@Amonet-ravencrest

So therefore even your basic run of the mill player can do it if they decide to do it.

But they don’t, and they never will, so it’s a moot point.

It’s the Italian proverb: “If my grandmother had wheels she’d be a bike.”
She doesn’t, she never will, so it’s pointless to consider the if…

[Amonet-ravencrest]

@Jito-turalyon

Because not all players are flipping the AH

Why is this your argument for flipping the AH and not for spending money? Do you know how few people actually end up buying a mythic boost, much less repeatedly?

@Jito-turalyon

Because that terrible player is me. And I have never and I will never complete a +10 Mythic Dungeon.

You want me to run you through a +10? I mean this sincerely and I can couch you to be able to run them yourself, all free of charge ofc.

@Jito-turalyon

So whereas now I would have 0% chance of ever getting ANY Mythic item in this game

And with a few magic words your chances got to 100% if you so wish to accept.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Amonet-ravencrest

Why is this your argument for flipping the AH and not for spending money? Do you know how few people actually end up buying a mythic boost, much less repeatedly?

Because I don’t have an issue with players making money from the AH, because that’s an in-game activity that ties into the game’s integrity just fine:

Time + effort and/or skill = reward

Spending gold you’ve acquired from swiping your credit card is not an in-game activity and the boost you’re buying is not the reward of you putting forth time, effort, or skill in the game.
I have a problem with that, because it undermines the game’s integrity.

@Amonet-ravencrest

You want me to run you through a +10? I mean this sincerely and I can couch you to be able to run them yourself, all free of charge ofc.

No.
But it wouldn’t be a problem onto itself.
Ishayo made that point earlier today:

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

WoW has 4 design pillars:

1. Great combat
2. Sense of world
3. Community
4. Constant stream of content

It takes 4 different kinds of skill - to correspond to each of these 4 pillars:

1. Be good at fighting the enemies directly
2. Be well prepared - use the resources of the world to overcome challenges and progress
3. Find the right people in your community
4. Be ready to adapt as things change

If you managed to find someone who were willing to carry you all the way to a mount for free because they just like you so much, do you know what you did? You succeeded at the 3rd type of skill to such an overwhelming degree that it was enough in and of itself. It was not cheating.

In this case, me being such a nice guy on the forum that you want to play with me and take me through a +10 Mythic Dungeon would be the “Find the right people in your community” type of skill Ishayo points out – which is a totally legitimate path to progress and power and rewards in an MMORPG that is ultimately meant to be social.

But as Ishayo also points out, it’s when you pay with money it becomes cheating:

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

The moment it becomes cheating is the moment you short-circuit the 2nd type of skill requirement by swiping your credit card.

Understanding the distinction between everything players do on their own or together in the game through their own time, effort and skill as legitimate, and everything that involves a credit card in the process as P2W and/or cheating is essential.
If you can’t separate those two, then you don’t recognize WoW’s game integrity or its design pillars and thus seem clueless about the intended and ideal gameplay experience you are meant to have as a player.

[Amonet-ravencrest]

@Jito-turalyon

No.

Why though?

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Amonet-ravencrest

Why though?

I have no desire to do a +10 Mythic Dungeon.
I don’t care for it.

[Alaríc-nethergarde-keep]

@Jito-turalyon

Because I don’t have an issue with players making money from the AH,

Yet you have an issue with highly skilled players selling there time? They have to gear up first and beat RnG gods to be in good stead to be able to boost others. It also pay’s for all there consumable’s,repairs and game time plus there cut of the fee is very small when shared between 5 players , advertiser and community. It’s just another way for people to make gold and after the clamp down by blizzard on boosting communities they have to be very open about how and were the gold is.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Jito-turalyon

And if you are painstakingly trying to min/max your gear as an outdoor player to anywhere near that item level, then you are spending an insane amount of time and effort and gold doing so. In which case, again, it’s far easier and cheaper and faster to buy a boost.

But some people have standards and refuse to buy boosts.

@Jito-turalyon

I mean, just look at my character. It has run a couple of Normal raids, a bunch of LFR raids, and farmed weekly quests every week throughout this Season. And I’m item level 505.
So much time and effort and I’m only item level 505.
I could boost my way past that in less than a day if I used my credit card.
It’s absurd.

I agree with everything you’re saying. My main’s ilvl is 509 at the moment. And to get Champion gear in every slot and all of it to 8/8 takes a lot of time and luck (which is what you’d need to unlock the crest exchange).

But even though I agree with everything you said there; I still don’t think it matters.
Sure you could boost your way to higher ilvls. And then?
It doesn’t matter to me in the slightest what your ilvl is.

So even though what you say is true; why does it matter?

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Alaríc-nethergarde-keep

Yet you have an issue with highly skilled players selling there time?

Since Blizzard allows individuals and guilds to do boosts for gold, I do not have an issue with any individuals or guilds boosting others for gold.

I do however have an issue with Blizzard allowing boosts for gold in the first place. I think that is a strong violation of their own game’s integrity and I think it deteriorates the fair play environment of WoW and undermines Blizzard’s own core value of Play Nice; Play Fair.

That’s my basic position.

@Tah-earthen-ring

But some people have standards and refuse to buy boosts.

Yes, and those players are getting the short end of the stick here, aren’t they? They’re adopting a fair play approach to the game, and their reward is to be the bottom of the barrel because they’re not the best, and they’re not getting boosted to the level of the best. So they’re the worst for being the fairest. Congratulations?

@Tah-earthen-ring

But even though I agree with everything you said there; I still don’t think it matters.

@Tah-earthen-ring

So even though what you say is true; why does it matter?

I think the prevalence of cheating, hacking, botting, boosting, money, and other such operations that undermines the game’s integrity slowly but surely strangle it to death.

I played Diablo II back in the day. And over time that game became more infested with bots, maphacks, dupes, hacked items, real-life money trading, carries, boosts, and so on.
And ultimately it just ruined the game.
Even Blizzard’s infamous rust storms and ladder resets did not purify the rot that had infected the gameplay approach that players had long since adopted – which was to cheat, pay, boost, hack, and otherwise doom the game’s multiplayer appeal completely over time.

And I kind of feel like WoW is going down the same path, surely but slowly. It’s the same pattern.

WoW will ultimately be what the players want it to be. If the players are all onboard with more money-trading and boosting and carries and early access and online store and botters and third-party websites and… Well, then that’s the future of the game.

Does it matter? Well the playerbase will ultimately decide that, just as the playerbase decided if it mattered in Diablo II.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Jito-turalyon

Yes, and those players are getting the short end of the stick here, aren’t they? They’re adopting a fair play approach to the game, and their reward is to be the bottom of the barrel because they’re not the best, and they’re not getting boosted to the level of the best. So they’re the worst for being the fairest. Congratulations?

That’s one way of looking at it. But that’s not how I look at it.
What does it matter to me if someone else has better gear? It doesn’t.
I’ll likely never interact with that person ever.

Also: I personally feel like I’m the winner there because I have standards and morals.

@Jito-turalyon

I think the prevalence of cheating, hacking, botting, boosting, money, and other such operations that undermines the game’s integrity slowly but surely strangle it to death.

Not all of those things hurt the game equally. Even though I consider boosting as cheating, it’s not on the same level as for instance hacking. It’s also completely unrelated.

So while I agree all of those things should be handled better by Blizzard, I don’t think it’s fair to lob them all on the same pile.

@Jito-turalyon

WoW will ultimately be what the players want it to be.

I think there is a line that the devs won’t cross.
At the very least I hope there is.

I’m not as worried as you about WoW’s future; certainly not for the remainder of this ‘saga’. But as sad as it is; at some point this game will end; either as a whole or for a person themselves. I don’t see myself playing this game for many more years, but I will enjoy what’s there until then.

[Amonet-ravencrest]

@Jito-turalyon

I think the prevalence of cheating, hacking, botting, boosting, money, and other such operations that undermines the game’s integrity slowly but surely strangle it to death.

So what do you think of stuff like catch up gear and seasons ?

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Tah-earthen-ring

Not all of those things hurt the game equally. Even though I consider boosting as cheating, it’s not on the same level as for instance hacking. It’s also completely unrelated.

It’s not unrelated. Because no popular and successful game starts with full-on hacking and then subsequently turns into a dumpster fire. It starts with smaller forms of cheating and real-life money trading, and then it grows over time, because why pay money if you can just hack the game for free and get what you want that way?

It’s the same in WoW. This is not some magical game that defies the behaviors of all other games.

@Tah-earthen-ring

I think there is a line that the devs won’t cross.

I don’t think there is. At least so far I have yet to see any such line.
I just see more monetization efforts from Blizzard, and more exploits and cheating from players, and a general willingness to indulge themselves in both the monetization from Blizzard and the cheating and hacking that surrounds it.

@Tah-earthen-ring

I’m not as worried as you about WoW’s future

I’m not worried. I’m not foreseeing myself hanging around until the bitter end. There are no consequences for me in this. I just feel a sense of bitterness that Blizzard have squandered this franchise in an effort to milk it for an extra penny.

@Amonet-ravencrest

So what do you think of stuff like catch up gear and seasons ?

I don’t think structured Seasons “belong” in a traditional MMORPG with a living and breathing fantasy world.
But Blizzard have chosen a seasonal design, and with a seasonal design comes a need for catch-up gear and such in lieu of not having actual resets. And WoW doesn’t have real resets because WoW is retro-fitted to be a seasonal game – it wasn’t designed for it from the beginning. It’s core design is that of the living and breathing fantasy world in a traditional MMORPG format. So Blizzard needs the catch-up gear and inflated experience gains and so on, in order to make the seasonal design sort-of-work. It’s a necessary evil if you will.
But it doesn’t align with my desires for an MMORPG experience and what that entails.

[Amonet-ravencrest]

Sry in advance for spaming you with replies and bringing up random quotes. Just now I got time to read more carefully the discussion because, ironically, I was boosting a friend through M0s XD.

@Jito-turalyon

I played Diablo II back in the day. And over time that game became more infested with bots, maphacks, dupes, hacked items, real-life money trading, carries, boosts, and so on.

@Jito-turalyon

WoW will ultimately be what the players want it to be. If the players are all onboard with more money-trading and boosting and carries and early access and online store and botters and third-party websites and… Well, then that’s the future of the game.

Again I say that the best way to kill boosting is to stop punishing scammers (more specifiacaly the scammers that “sell” boosts). The problem is that Blizzard cannot ban boosting because they cannot prove who is boosted and who isn’t. Take Tahra for example, one could argue that every single one of her LFR runs she gets boosted (and yes I picked her specifically because I warned her that that hill isn’t worth dying on). I have no doubt that she is doing all she can to do the best she can, buuuuut she really does not care about optimizing her character and her dps is miles below the average. Compare that to the average overgeared player is pretty much in every LFR run because they are farming a mount or a mog, it’s a clear sign of a boost. So how do you prove that Tahra isn’t boosted?

Also the whole notion of “doesn’t matter if a boost is paid or unpaid it’s cheating” is so freaking backwards and anti-MMO it hurts my brain. You finally get your friend to play the game and you go “Sry bruh can’t play with you because your a scrub and boosting is wrong”.

Sooo with all that said. How do you prove that someone is boosted? You remove the boosting channel, advertisement will go elsewhere. You start checking gold transaction, you have just killed person to person trading. You start stalking chats like psycho (good luck with finding someone to do that), the negotiations will just move to a different platform out side the game, Blizzard cannot ban me for using discord.

So back to my original point. The only way to kill boosting is to allow scammers to run rampart. Boosting is prevalent because it has never and will never be banable, but scamming is, soooo the community is safe to buy boosts and they have fail safes against scams, there is a trust between community and boosters. By allowing scammers, you can brake that trust. Everyone and their mother will start “selling carries” and the whales will wash up on shore. Spending money will no longer mean that you are getting what you paid for. And here is the best part, once boosting is dead, the scammers will be dead as well. If there is no one left to buy boosts there is no one left to scam.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

Getting boosted can simply be deserved within the core framework of WoW’s skill requirements. People forget that playing the economy and finding friends are skills that WoW is designed to reward.

Buying gold to buy boosts, on the other hand…

[Shopkeeper-aggramar (Shopkeeper)]

Yes.
Real life currency can buy you power.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

It’s that simple

It is amazing to me that so many of you are in denial and justifying it simply by rejecting any reasonable definition of “win”.

[Mistjo-argent-dawn]

We all have a reasonable definition of win. They are all just different.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Mistjo-argent-dawn

We all have a reasonable definition of win.

HA, not at all. Most of them in here are completely crazy.

“I have 100%'d the game and become world champion” is not a reasonable definition of winning in World of Warcraft, and this one is coming up a lot.

That definition is crazy. It’s like saying you can’t win in a board game unless you’re the world champion, or that you can’t complete a game without 100%'ing every activity available. All things like “winning a fight” or “winning a reward loot roll” etc. all, apparently, go out the window.

After all, if winning is literally impossible (nobody has ever fulfilled their criteria for winning) then it can’t be p2w!

[Mistjo-argent-dawn]

When you play a boardgame you at least play against other people. In this game you get catch-up gear while you play together with others, not against. My only sidethought is pvp in wow. But i do not pvp. Most players here talk about dungeons and raid-boosts.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Mistjo-argent-dawn

When you play a boardgame you at least play against other people. In this game you get catch-up gear while you play together with others.

Thousands of co-op board games exist, yet they still pose a challenge and you can win or lose in them. Would you argue that it is impossible to win a game of Pandemic because there is no definition of what that means, as an example?

I hope not, because that would fall under the purview of “crazy definitions of winning”. Obviously you win at the game if you meet the criteria listed as the win condition in the bloody rule book.

[Mistjo-argent-dawn]

Pandemic you can not pay and just win. I really do not see the comparison to WoW. Sorry.
You are sitting there with 4 people playing a boardgame… And you try to compare with a MMORPG.

You know you are allowed to just say to the board of Pandemic; and now i just won. And then you walk away and you won. Who cares?